Restoring Tradition

[tpw]

If one doesn’t accept Vatican II then certainly one by defition has removed him or herself from the Tradition. Sorry about that…

If the Holy Ghost was “unhappy” with the Assisi Day of Prayer…he/she certainly hasn’t expressed it at least as I’ve understood it… Interfaith dialogue continues to grow.

Speaking of the Holy Ghost let me tell you a little story. Several years ago as part of a class on cross cultural ministery I was enrolled in at Catholic Theological Union in Chicagto, we spent a week at the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota.

Among other things during the week, we learned of the terrible struggles going on in the reservation… Horrible drug and alcohol problems, incredible poverty (75% unemployment), high rates of spousal abuse, on-going racism with local ranchers, tension between those Sioux who retained their Christian identity and those who had returned to indigenous practices (the missionary’s serving the community had tried inculturation with varying degrees of success) and so on.

On the final evening we participated in a Sioux prayer ritual. Many of the people whose stories and suffering we’d learned about were present. Three men came in with musical instruments and a peace pipe. They led us in prayer chanting in Lakota.

About an hour into the ritual something like lights began flickering around the room (there were no other lights in the room beyond ceiling lights and these defintely weren’t ceiling lights) , a profound and I mean PROFOUND peace fell over the room. Several people who had told of us of their struggles began laughing for joy.

The chant reminded me of Hebrew chants I heard- very gutteral; the lights reminded me of the story in the Acts of the Apostles at Pentecost and the peace - a peace the world would not understand…

The Spirit moves in ways we don’t know…

 

[StAnastasia]

About an hour into the ritual something like lights began flickering around the room (there were no other lights in the room beyond ceiling lights and these defintely weren’t ceiling lights) , a profound and I mean PROFOUND peace fell over the room. Several people who had told of us of their struggles began laughing for joy.

TPW, what a wonderful story! It occurs to me that perhaps you might want to relate this experience to Barbara Bradley Haggerty, a fascinating person whom I hear speak last November. She is intensely interested in human experiences of spirituality, and has written about these in Fingerprints of God: The Search for the Science of Spirituality. She is always eager to hear more stories from readers.

StAnastasia

 

[mick321]

Speaking of the Holy Ghost let me tell you a little story. Several years ago as part of a class on cross cultural ministery I was enrolled in at Catholic Theological Union in Chicagto, we spent a week at the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota.

Among other things during the week, we learned of the terrible struggles going on in the reservation… Horrible drug and alcohol problems, incredible poverty (75% unemployment), high rates of spousal abuse, on-going racism with local ranchers, tension between those Sioux who retained their Christian identity and those who had returned to indigenous practices (the missionary’s serving the community had tried inculturation with varying degrees of success) and so on.

On the final evening we participated in a Sioux prayer ritual. Many of the people whose stories and suffering we’d learned about were present. Three men came in with musical instruments and a peace pipe. They led us in prayer chanting in Lakota.

About an hour into the ritual something like lights began flickering around the room (there were no other lights in the room beyond ceiling lights and these defintely weren’t ceiling lights) , a profound and I mean PROFOUND peace fell over the room. Several people who had told of us of their struggles began laughing for joy.

The chant reminded me of Hebrew chants I heard- very gutteral; the lights reminded me of the story in the Acts of the Apostles at Pentecost and the peace - a peace the world would not understand…

The Spirit moves in ways we don’t know…

I’ve heard of this before.

An opium den was an establishment where opium was sold and smoked. Opium dens were prevalent in many parts of the world in the 19th century, most notably China, Southeast Asia, North America and France.

Most opium dens kept a supply of opium paraphernalia such as the specialized pipes and lamps that were necessary to smoke the drug. Patrons would recline in order to hold the long opium pipes over oil lamps that would heat the drug until it vaporized, allowing the smoker to inhale the vapors.

In urban areas of the United States, particularly on the West Coast, there were opium dens that mirrored the best to be found in China, with luxurious trappings and female attendants. For the working class, there were also many low-end dens with sparse furnishings.

 

[StAnastasia]

Most opium dens kept a supply of opium paraphernalia such as the specialized pipes and lamps that were necessary to smoke the drug. Patrons would recline in order to hold the long opium pipes over oil lamps that would heat the drug until it vaporized, allowing the smoker to inhale the vapors.

Sort of like a traditional rite mass with incense and chanting.

 

[mick321]

Sort of like a traditional rite mass with incense and chanting.

Or a safe house before the flashbangs detonate.

 

[CradleCath]

StAnastasia;6603405]I’m sorry – it was merely a light-hearted response to your insulting insinuation that my Catholic priest and lay academic colleagues might be atheists. Nothing more was intended than my light-hearted reply, and** I hold no grudges.**

WHOA!!! Definition of passive/agressive communication:

marked by, or displaying behavior characterized by the expression of negative feelings, resentment, and aggression in an unassertive passive way.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

either you two produce verifiable stats or you’re just trolling

You can’t produce “stats.” The “stats” are the Mass attendance before and after the Council. What is the most important cause of someone going to Mass? That’s pretty obvious. The Mass. Of course there are other concerns, but when you go from 80% (or more) practicing the faith (in Europe, for example) to 4% today, someone would have to be at the height of naiveté to believe it had nothing to do with the Mass.

As someone else said, as well, you don’t go from being a devout Catholic to not practicing. You commit sin (perhaps from receiving less grace from the Sacraments in the Novus Ordo, which do not dispose you to receive grace as much as the traditional Mass, and while the Sacraments work ex opere operato, we only receive as much grace as we are disposed to receive). You only slowly turn from the practice of the faith. Of course, today they will not be clamoring for the traditional Mass (though some are and readily admit that this is the reason they left; they thought the new Mass was a joke and not what had been received by their fathers in the faith from the Apostles–I have been told as much by multiple elderly persons), but that’s because they have been hardened against God through their sins and long absence from his holy altar.

 

[grannymh]

:

Originally Posted by mick321

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Most opium dens kept a supply of opium paraphernalia such as the specialized pipes and lamps that were necessary to smoke the drug. Patrons would recline in order to hold the long opium pipes over oil lamps that would heat the drug until it vaporized, allowing the smoker to inhale the vapors.

Sort of like a traditional rite mass with incense and chanting.

Not exactly. FYI “A traditional rite mass” is the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, a most sacred occasion when Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, becomes truly present under the signs of bread and wine. This is known as the Catholic Eucharist.

 

[StAnastasia]

WHOA!!! Definition of passive/agressive communication:
marked by, or displaying behavior characterized by the expression of negative feelings, resentment, and aggression in an unassertive passive way.

Dude, you need to develop a sense of humor!

 

[otjm]

it depends of which priest you go to. i bet you can get different answers.

if she asks a priest who support lesbians and gays and women priests, his answer will probably be different from an Orthodox Traditional priest.

And it might also be different from a priest who follows the Magisterium, and it might be different from an orthodox (as opposed to Orthodox - meaning Eastern Churches is schism with the Catholic Church) Traditional priest, and an Orthodox traditional priest, and an orthodox traditional priest.

And by any chance are you suggesting that a priest who follows the Magisterium but does not fit into whatever definition you might have for Traditional would answer differently?:dancing:

 

[otjm]

You can’t produce “stats.” The “stats” are the Mass attendance before and after the Council. What is the most important cause of someone going to Mass? That’s pretty obvious. The Mass. Of course there are other concerns, but when you go from 80% (or more) practicing the faith (in Europe, for example) to 4% today, someone would have to be at the height of naiveté to believe it had nothing to do with the Mass.

The heighth of naivete, or an understanding of the other influences that have impacted Europe? It would be naivete to presume that if Europe in places has reduced to 4 to 5% attendance and it is due to the form of the Mass, and that logically there would be no connection and the same Mass in the US would be attended at 6 to 7 times as many - 30 to 35 % (and those statistics come from CARA). In other words, if the Mass were the source of loss of the faithful, then why is it not occuring world wide at the same rate? Oh, shock of shocks - there must be other influences!!!

As someone else said, as well, you don’t go from being a devout Catholic to not practicing. You commit sin (perhaps from receiving less grace from the Sacraments in the Novus Ordo, which do not dispose you to receive grace as much as the traditional Mass, and while the Sacraments work ex opere operato, we only receive as much grace as we are disposed to receive).

Please substantiate that bit of theological whimsy by any offical documents eminating from Rome.

You only slowly turn from the practice of the faith. Of course, today they will not be clamoring for the traditional Mass (though some are and readily admit that this is the reason they left; they thought the new Mass was a joke and not what had been received by their fathers in the faith from the Apostles–I have been told as much by multiple elderly persons), but that’s because they have been hardened against God through their sins and long absence from his holy altar.

Having had some actual experience, and actually done a little more interviewing than you have - I work with Catholics Returning Home program and with others who work in the same or similar programs, the vast majority of those who have left the Church have not done so over the form of the Mass. And having grown up on tha EF before Vatican 2 (I was in college seminary when it ended) I have talked to a whole lot more people who stayed in the Church and attend Mass regularly, who think the best thing to come out of all the change was having the Mass in the vernacular. It is such tremendous irony that those who grew up on the EF are not among the largest section of those who strongly favor the EF; just looking through these threads shows the number of comments about hwo the EF Masses are populated so strongly by the young.

 

[otjm]

I’ve heard of this before.

An opium den was an establishment where opium was sold and smoked. Opium dens were prevalent in many parts of the world in the 19th century, most notably China, Southeast Asia, North America and France.

Most opium dens kept a supply of opium paraphernalia such as the specialized pipes and lamps that were necessary to smoke the drug. Patrons would recline in order to hold the long opium pipes over oil lamps that would heat the drug until it vaporized, allowing the smoker to inhale the vapors.

In urban areas of the United States, particularly on the West Coast, there were opium dens that mirrored the best to be found in China, with luxurious trappings and female attendants. For the working class, there were also many low-end dens with sparse furnishings.

Your comment comes across either as seriously misguided humor, or ignorance, or serious prejudice. I can’t decide which.

 

[otjm]

:

Not exactly. FYI “A traditional rite mass” is the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, a most sacred occasion when Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, becomes truly present under the signs of bread and wine. This is known as the Catholic Eucharist.

OK, so that one went sailing right past you.

 

[pnewton]

Dude, you need to develop a sense of humor!

FYI - Dudette, not dude, although our* sister* here has a remarkably lucid and logical mind…for a woman.

 

[CAnnElizabeth]

Do the VII changes bear good fruit? Ask yourself that question.

Has VII increased church attendance and reverence for the Eucharist? Are Catholics more devout in their daily lives? Do Catholics have a reputation for being self-denying ascetics or lazy come-day-go-day church-goers?

We believe in Faith and Works. What works do you see from Catholic faithful that astounds you and impresses you?

See, when I think of a Mormon, as wrong as their religion truly is, I think of a devout self-denier with a big family, an opponent of birth control. But when I think of the average Catholic, I get a very different picture.

I want to restore tradition and make Catholics reverent self-deniers again. We are lazy and disinterested today, largely because of Vatican II.

Perhaps your opinions and arguments would be more palatable and reasonable if they were not steeped in generalities.

 

[grannymh]

OK, so that one went sailing right past you.

Yup. Sacred sarcasm always does.

 

[grannymh]

OK, so that one went sailing right past you.

As inappropriate scarcasism, it sure did.

 

[StAnastasia]

FYI - Dudette, not dude, although our* sister* here has a remarkably lucid and logical mind…for a woman.

Wait you’re a dudette? I thought you were a fireman from your old photo (or your son had a fire hat on, or maybe I’m just confused). In any case, wherever we were in this conversation, humor is great!

 

[tpw]

And surprise…a development took place in the tradition. Pope John Paul’s assembly at Assisi in 1986 gathered religious figures from across denominations and faith traditions. They “came together to pray” as he put it.

Benedict attended a Muslim mosque and a Jewish synagogue.

No one left their religious tradition… The sky did not fall down…

It’s far better that we learn areas of common ground and difference leaving each other more clearly understanding each other than living together in ignorance and hurtling false claims across religious boundaries… It makes for a far more civil environment than what existed prior to the council…

There remain problems of course…but the patient, often unglamorous process of discussing things will take us much further than instigating hatred and witch hunts…

 

[pnewton]

Wait you’re a dudette? I thought you were a fireman from your old photo (or your son had a fire hat on, or maybe I’m just confused). In any case, wherever we were in this conversation, humor is great!

No, no, not at all. CradleCatholic was called a dude. She’s the dudette, a person who has earned my respect during her time here. I am a male chauvenist. I am not a fireman, but all kids love to dress as fireman. I guess it’s time for a new picture.