Resurrection of the body question

[THP]

I have a question that has always bothered me. It is based on certain assumptions so please correct me if they are off base.

My understanding is that as Catholics we believe we are not simply souls trapped in bodies but that our bodies are an intrinsic part of who we are. The importance of this is emphasized by the fact that it was the body of Jesus that rose from the dead and when he ascended into heaven it was his entire body and soul that did so. This is why we believe in the resurrection of the body.

Don’t we also believe that Jesus will return to the earth at the time of the final judgement, the earth will be destroyed and the living and dead will be judged. I assume this means that at this time of judgement is when the resurrection of our bodies will occur.

If this is the case, then how is it possible that some people have already been judged worthy of Heaven (such as saints) or condemned to Hell? How can we pray to them if their bodies have not yet been resurrected? Do we actually believe that the spirit or soul separates from the body? That would seem to contradict my first point. Why do we need resurrection of the body and the final judgement of the living AND the dead if some of the dead have already been judged? It seems to make resurrection of the body unnecessary.

 

[Richard_White]

The Final Judgement of the living and the dead is necessary, because God wants nothing to be kept secret, but the sins and virtues of all, living and dead to be brought forward before the souls of everyone who has ever lived. For this reason, those who have already been judged privately will be judged again and go to the same place that they already were so that everyone can be witness to his or her holiness/sinfulness.

May God bless you!

 

[GEddie]

I have a question that has always bothered me. It is based on certain assumptions so please correct me if they are off base.

My understanding is that as Catholics we believe we are not simply souls trapped in bodies but that our bodies are an intrinsic part of who we are. The importance of this is emphasized by the fact that it was the body of Jesus that rose from the dead and when he ascended into heaven it was his entire body and soul that did so. This is why we believe in the resurrection of the body.

Don’t we also believe that Jesus will return to the earth at the time of the final judgement, the earth will be destroyed and the living and dead will be judged. I assume this means that at this time of judgement is when the resurrection of our bodies will occur.

If this is the case, then how is it possible that some people have already been judged worthy of Heaven (such as saints) or condemned to Hell? How can we pray to them if their bodies have not yet been resurrected? Do we actually believe that the spirit or soul separates from the body? That would seem to contradict my first point. Why do we need resurrection of the body and the final judgement of the living AND the dead if some of the dead have already been judged? It seems to make resurrection of the body unnecessary.

The difference is that between time and eternity.

When you die, you will emerge from time. From your perspective, the “judgement” occurs at that point, but it really occurs outside of time.

Those still naturally breathing at the very end will experience the “judgement” alive and all at the same moment.

The human soul/spirit/mind can survive dying in the body, but requires a body for being alive. Therefore, when your aliveness resumes, you will be embodied.

ICXC NIKA!

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Don’t we also believe that Jesus will return to the earth at the time of the final judgement, the earth will be destroyed and the living and dead will be judged. I assume this means that at this time of judgement is when the resurrection of our bodies will occur.

I believe that’s the case yes, I don’t think the Earth
will be destroyed though but rather renewed. Some-
one check me out on that please.

If this is the case, then how is it possible that some people have already been judged worthy of Heaven (such as saints) or condemned to Hell? How can we pray to them if their bodies have not yet been resurrected? Do we actually believe that the spirit or soul separates from the body? That would seem to contradict my first point. Why do we need resurrection of the body and the final judgement of the living AND the dead if some of the dead have already been judged? It seems to make resurrection of the body unnecessary.

God did not assign us our destiny to Heaven or Hell, but he has judged in light of what he
knows about the choices we will make. We can pray to saints who we know are in Heaven,
knowing only because the Holy Spirit accordingly guides the Church in recognizing Saints.

Christian teaching on death/saved is essentially this: Separate from the body and pres–
ent with the Lord. The reason why we are to be resurrected is that our bodies, right now,
are corrupt products of a fallen world, still precious to God, and they will be restored and
perfected, be made indestructible, incorruptible, pure.

I don’t fully get the point of the Final Judgment either, as it does seem to already occur
once we die, but there must be a logical answer to that here somewhere, so maybe we
will both learn a thing or two about this.

 

[fred_conty]

Our soul departs from the body at the moment of actual death, is judged, and then goes to heaven, hell or purgatory. The soul is the intellect and will of the person. So after death in heaven, a person can know the prayers of those who are saying them since they still have intelligence without the body. Angels too have no bodies and understand prayers of those who are saying them because of their intelligence.

At the end of the world, our bodies are judged for reward and punishment as our souls already were judged, and we are judged as a human person, body and soul. The common understanding is that the bodies of the faithful will be transformed into something beautiful, while those of the wicked will be unpleasant and suffer with their soul.

 

[fnr]

If this is the case, then how is it possible that some people have already been judged worthy of Heaven (such as saints) or condemned to Hell? How can we pray to them if their bodies have not yet been resurrected? Do we actually believe that the spirit or soul separates from the body? That would seem to contradict my first point. Why do we need resurrection of the body and the final judgement of the living AND the dead if some of the dead have already been judged? It seems to make resurrection of the body unnecessary.

Your questions are all well-posed. To me, the answers to many of these questions lie in the fact that souls are spiritual, not physical, and therefore are not subject to the same laws of physics (such as space and unidirectional time) as a living human being. On “the Last Day” the cosmos will be reborn (see Romans 8:18-23, Revelation 21, Wisdom 3). Our bodies will be resurrected, which 1 Cor 15 tells us will be like Jesus’ resurrected body.

After death, the soul continues to exist. But the soul is not a disembodied version of ourselves, but rather the “spiritual principle” of us, our most essential self – which may not include perception or consciousness as we understand them (these are physically-constrained and calibrated properties of the human person). Our souls do not experience time as we do. However they do, it is a mystery. That being said, God is also not subject to the constraints of space and time.

At death, the particular judgment (which is not at any time or place within the cosmos) occurs. When someone dies in a state of sanctifying grace, their soul undergo some type of purgation and theosis prior to “entering” (not in the physical sense) Heaven. At that point, the soul is saintly, and enjoys the Beatific Vision in whatever manner God wills (which the Catechism refers to as “intuitive vision”).

Resurrection is at the point of the reunion of Heaven and Earth/Cosmos, akin to the Eden described in Genesis 1-2. Saints are resurrected on this “Last Day,” and if and how they then look upon the cosmos in which we live is unknown. But we do know that prayer to a saint is effective, so presumably there is some ability of theirs to relate to us in the physical and temporal constraints in which we exist.

Resurrection is our ultimate state, the endpoint of creation. It is necessary because our salvation is part of a larger divine purpose: the reunion of Heaven and earth. This was the promise to the Hebrew Prophets, foreshadowed in the pillar of fire over the Ark of the Covenant. Being a soul in Heaven is a stopover on the way to this final state.

Damnation results in a soul entering a state of permanent death, without resurrection. The bodies of the damned are not resurrected. They are lost to the cosmos, and to God. The experience of Hell, I do not even want to try to imagine, but I can only guess it’s not good. Again, it’s outside the space and time of the cosmos.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

. . . Damnation results in a soul entering a state of permanent death, without resurrection. The bodies of the damned are not resurrected. They are lost to the cosmos, and to God. The experience of Hell, I do not even want to try to imagine, but I can only guess it’s not good. Again, it’s outside the space and time of the cosmos.

I don’t think that’s right, but rather everyone will be resurrected, be given indestructible
bodies, but those who do go to Hell are tormented in these indestructible bodies, with
all the agony and gnashing of teeth and so forth. The Resurrection comes, so I believe,
before the Final Judgement, so everyone will be resurrected, be brought before judge–
ment, THEN will receive their fate, Heaven or Hell.

Someone Please Correct Me, this is a crucial thing…

 

[fnr]

I don’t think that’s right, but rather everyone will be resurrected, be given indestructible
bodies, but those who do go to Hell are tormented in these indestructible bodies, with
all the agony and gnashing of teeth and so forth. The Resurrection comes, so I believe,
before the Final Judgement, so everyone will be resurrected, be brought before judge–
ment, THEN will receive their fate, Heaven or Hell.

Someone Please Correct Me, this is a crucial thing…

Here’s the CCC on Hell (I’ve removed the footnote numbers)

*1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. **Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
**
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.​

*

 

[fred_conty]

I don’t think that’s right, but rather everyone will be resurrected, be given indestructible
bodies, but those who do go to Hell are tormented in these indestructible bodies, with
all the agony and gnashing of teeth and so forth. The Resurrection comes, so I believe,
before the Final Judgement, so everyone will be resurrected, be brought before judge–
ment, THEN will receive their fate, Heaven or Hell.

Someone Please Correct Me, this is a crucial thing…

Correct. All bodies will be resurrected, those who are good and those who are evil. And the bodies will participate in the happiness or suffering of the individual.

 

[fnr]

Correct. All bodies will be resurrected, those who are good and those who are evil. And the bodies will participate in the happiness or suffering of the individual.

How do you interpret this verse?
John 5: “28 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voices 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Note that the resurrections are contrasted, with one being “of life” and the other being “of condemnation.” To me, a resurrection without life doesn’t sound like one of a glorified body…

 

[fred_conty]

How do you interpret this verse?
John 5: “28 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voices 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Note that the resurrections are contrasted, with one being “of life” and the other being “of condemnation.” To me, a resurrection without life doesn’t sound like one of a glorified body…

Well you are right, resurrection of condemnation will not be a body that is glorified but a body that will participate in the suffering of the condemned soul. So those who are judged unworthy of heaven, their bodies will not be pretty. But their bodies will be resurrected.

 

[THP]

Thanks everyone for all the interesting answers!

 

[THP]

The difference is that between time and eternity.

When you die, you will emerge from time. From your perspective, the “judgement” occurs at that point, but it really occurs outside of time.

Those still naturally breathing at the very end will experience the “judgement” alive and all at the same moment.

The human soul/spirit/mind can survive dying in the body, but requires a body for being alive. Therefore, when your aliveness resumes, you will be embodied.

ICXC NIKA!

I can buy this, although it is hard to conceptualize especially when you consider that during the time from the judgement to the resurrection people pray for you.

 

[THP]

Our soul departs from the body at the moment of actual death, is judged, and then goes to heaven, hell or purgatory. The soul is the intellect and will of the person. So after death in heaven, a person can know the prayers of those who are saying them since they still have intelligence without the body. Angels too have no bodies and understand prayers of those who are saying them because of their intelligence.

At the end of the world, our bodies are judged for reward and punishment as our souls already were judged, and we are judged as a human person, body and soul. The common understanding is that the bodies of the faithful will be transformed into something beautiful, while those of the wicked will be unpleasant and suffer with their soul.

We are judged twice? Could the resurrected and reunited body/soul ever be given a different judgement than the original judgement of the soul alone?

 

[THP]

Your questions are all well-posed. To me, the answers to many of these questions lie in the fact that souls are spiritual, not physical, and therefore are not subject to the same laws of physics (such as space and unidirectional time) as a living human being. On “the Last Day” the cosmos will be reborn (see Romans 8:18-23, Revelation 21, Wisdom 3). Our bodies will be resurrected, which 1 Cor 15 tells us will be like Jesus’ resurrected body.

After death, the soul continues to exist. But the soul is not a disembodied version of ourselves, but rather the “spiritual principle” of us, our most essential self – which may not include perception or consciousness as we understand them (these are physically-constrained and calibrated properties of the human person). Our souls do not experience time as we do. However they do, it is a mystery. That being said, God is also not subject to the constraints of space and time.

At death, the particular judgment (which is not at any time or place within the cosmos) occurs. When someone dies in a state of sanctifying grace, their soul undergo some type of purgation and theosis prior to “entering” (not in the physical sense) Heaven. At that point, the soul is saintly, and enjoys the Beatific Vision in whatever manner God wills (which the Catechism refers to as “intuitive vision”).

Resurrection is at the point of the reunion of Heaven and Earth/Cosmos, akin to the Eden described in Genesis 1-2. Saints are resurrected on this “Last Day,” and if and how they then look upon the cosmos in which we live is unknown. But we do know that prayer to a saint is effective, so presumably there is some ability of theirs to relate to us in the physical and temporal constraints in which we exist.

Resurrection is our ultimate state, the endpoint of creation. It is necessary because our salvation is part of a larger divine purpose: the reunion of Heaven and earth. This was the promise to the Hebrew Prophets, foreshadowed in the pillar of fire over the Ark of the Covenant. Being a soul in Heaven is a stopover on the way to this final state.

Damnation results in a soul entering a state of permanent death, without resurrection. The bodies of the damned are not resurrected. They are lost to the cosmos, and to God. The experience of Hell, I do not even want to try to imagine, but I can only guess it’s not good. Again, it’s outside the space and time of the cosmos.

This is the best answer I have come across to these questions. Thanks.

 

[THP]

Well you are right, resurrection of condemnation will not be a body that is glorified but a body that will participate in the suffering of the condemned soul. So those who are judged unworthy of heaven, their bodies will not be pretty. But their bodies will be resurrected.

fnr, would you agree with this? It seems like it could be consistent with that passage from John.

 

[GEddie]

I can buy this, although it is hard to conceptualize especially when you consider that during the time from the judgement to the resurrection people pray for you.

That doesn’t mean that you “hear” the prayers in collinear time. You need ears and a head for hearing, anyhow.

I imagine that it’s like coming out of general anesthesia and waking up to balloons, cards etc. that were prepared while you were “dead to the world.” Oh, and our LORD holding your new hands!!

ICXC NIKA!

 

[GEddie]

This is the best answer I have come across to these questions. Thanks.

It is incorrect that the bodies are not resurrected in damnation; they are, read the end of the Book of Daniel; but without the freedom of movement, etc, associated with the heavenly pneumatikon soma.

As our LORD said, “Bind his **hands **and **feet **and cast him into the outer darkness.”

So they’ve got limbs; also, they need eyes and a head to notice the darkness.

ICXC NIKA

 

[THP]

It is incorrect that the bodies are not resurrected in damnation; they are, read the end of the Book of Daniel; but without the freedom of movement, etc, associated with the heavenly pneumatikon soma.

As our LORD said, “Bind his **hands **and **feet **and cast him into the outer darkness.”

So they’ve got limbs; also, they need eyes and a head to notice the darkness.

ICXC NIKA

Sure, I meant everything except that part as noted by the other posters earlier.