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Noose001
Guest
Is Resurrection continuous and ongoing now or does it happen sometime in the future? Do Catholics baptize for the dead?
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Bithynian
Guest
If you are referring to a bodily resurrection with everlasting life (as opposed to a spiritual resurrection/rebirth or a non-everlasting resurrection as tradition holds has been performed by some saints), then this only occurs at the Day of Judgement.Is Resurrection continuous and ongoing now or does it happen sometime in the future?
No. No Christians perform posthumous baptism (Latter-Day Saints do, however the overwhelming majority of Christians would not theologically consider Mormonism a legitimate Christian community).Do Catholics baptize for the dead?
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Noose001
Guest
Thanks for the answer @Bithynian but i wasn’t speaking of ‘baptism on-behalf of the dead’ probably what the Mormons are doing, i was speaking of ‘baptism for the dead’ which is supported by the true belief on resurrection.No. No Christians perform posthumous baptism (Latter-Day Saints do, however the overwhelming majority of Christians would not theologically consider Mormonism a legitimate Christian community).
For example: when a Catholic is baptized and renamed as st. John or st. Peter, isn’t that an example of baptism for the dead?
1 Cor 15: 29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
How is being baptized and taking the name of a saint who is in Heaven (and thus not in need of any baptismal or other help to get there) an example of “baptism for the dead”?For example: when a Catholic is baptized and renamed as st. John or st. Peter, isn’t that an example of baptism for the dead?
As Bithynian said, Catholics (and Orthodox, and mainstream Protestants) do NOT practice this today. In the time of Paul it was practiced by some Gnostic groups and Paul was using the practice to make a point, not saying it was a good thing to do or suggesting we should all go do it.
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Noose001
Guest
1 Corinthians 15:29 wording suggests that there’s nothing wrong with the practice. In fact Paul uses it to demonstrate his teaching on resurrection, so people did that because they believed the dead were being raised.How is being baptized and taking the name of a saint who is in Heaven (and thus not in need of any baptismal or other help to get there) an example of “baptism for the dead”?
As Bithynian said, Catholics (and Orthodox, and mainstream Protestants) do NOT practice this today. In the time of Paul it was practiced by some Gnostic groups and Paul was using the practice to make a point, not saying it was a good thing to do or suggesting we should all go do it.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
1 Corithians suggests no such approval on the part of Paul, and the NABRE footnote explicitly says what I just wrote.
“People” in general in Paul’s time did not do that, some Gnostic sects were the other ones that did that, if you read about the history of the practice.
You are correct that Paul uses the practice to make a point, which is also what I said.
“People” in general in Paul’s time did not do that, some Gnostic sects were the other ones that did that, if you read about the history of the practice.
You are correct that Paul uses the practice to make a point, which is also what I said.
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Noose001
Guest
Okaaay.1 Corithians suggests no such approval on the part of Paul, and the NABRE footnote explicitly says what I just wrote.
“People” in general in Paul’s time did not do that, some Gnostic sects were the other ones that did that, if you read about the history of the practice.
You are correct that Paul uses the practice to make a point, which is also what I said.
So when you are baptized and renamed st. Peter, what’s the idea behind?
- Is there some underlying belief about the person who is baptized, somehow being connected to st. Peter for guidance through this life?
- Is there an underlying belief that st. Peter is resurrected and can guide a believer?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
When a baby is baptized in the Catholic Church nowadays, there is no requirement that the baby be named after a saint or a deceased person. The baby is baptized with the name his or her parents choose to give him. If they name him “Peter” it’s usually because Mom and Dad like the name, or he’s being named after some family member like his dad or grandpa who was named Peter (and Dad or Grandpa might very well be alive when this happens). There used to be a requirement that Catholic babies be named after a saint in order to show they were Catholic and to avoid inappropriate names, also it was expected that the “name saint” would be a special saint who would intercede on behalf of the child throughout his life. This idea was stronger in some cultures than in others and the requirement in USA has gone away entirely as far as I know. When my father was baptized as an adult the Church also didn’t change his name.
When you are confirmed (not baptized) you can choose a saint to be your “confirmation saint” which means that saint is someone you pray to especially for their intercession and have a special bond with, like you want to model your Catholic life after them. Most people don’t actually use the name of their saint as one of their names.
In any event, like I said, saints are in heaven already. They don’t need us to baptize in their name or confirm in their name, they’re with God, they don’t need any help getting to heaven. And that’s not why we use their name, as I explained above.
When you are confirmed (not baptized) you can choose a saint to be your “confirmation saint” which means that saint is someone you pray to especially for their intercession and have a special bond with, like you want to model your Catholic life after them. Most people don’t actually use the name of their saint as one of their names.
In any event, like I said, saints are in heaven already. They don’t need us to baptize in their name or confirm in their name, they’re with God, they don’t need any help getting to heaven. And that’s not why we use their name, as I explained above.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Also, I note that in your first question you asked, “Do Catholics baptize for the dead”?
Two Catholics have now answered you and said, “No, Catholics don’t”. (As well as numerous web sources stating Catholics don’t do this.)
Yet you keep seemingly trying to argue that we do. Why ask the question if you’re not going to accept the truthful answer?
Two Catholics have now answered you and said, “No, Catholics don’t”. (As well as numerous web sources stating Catholics don’t do this.)
Yet you keep seemingly trying to argue that we do. Why ask the question if you’re not going to accept the truthful answer?
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Noose001
Guest
It is ok to feel enraged, not my intention at all but i’m fascinated by your answer below, it is precisely what i was looking for:Also, I note that in your first question you asked, “Do Catholics baptize for the dead”?
Two Catholics have now answered you and said, “No, Catholics don’t”. (As well as numerous web sources stating Catholics don’t do this.)
Yet you keep seemingly trying to argue that we do. Why ask the question if you’re not going to accept the truthful answer?
It is not the practice that matters but the underlying belief and it is not the saints that are to be helped but those that are living. It is also not about Church requirement but what the church teaches about resurrection.When a baby is baptized in the Catholic Church nowadays, there is no requirement that the baby be named after a saint or a deceased person. The baby is baptized with the name his or her parents choose to give him. If they name him “Peter” it’s usually because Mom and Dad like the name, or he’s being named after some family member like his dad or grandpa who was named Peter (and Dad or Grandpa might very well be alive when this happens). There used to be a requirement that Catholic babies be named after a saint in order to show they were Catholic and to avoid inappropriate names, also it was expected that the “name saint” would be a special saint who would intercede on behalf of the child throughout his life. This idea was stronger in some cultures than in others and the requirement in USA has gone away entirely as far as I know. When my father was baptized as an adult the Church also didn’t change his name.
When you are confirmed (not baptized) you can choose a saint to be your “confirmation saint” which means that saint is someone you pray to especially for their intercession and have a special bond with, like you want to model your Catholic life after them. Most people don’t actually use the name of their saint as one of their names.
In any event, like I said, saints are in heaven already. They don’t need us to baptize in their name or confirm in their name, they’re with God, they don’t need any help getting to heaven. And that’s not why we use their name, as I explained above.
Saying that initially it was done and nowadays it is not necessary, shows how the subject is increasingly being watered down.
Thanks anyway.
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CRM_Brother
Guest
But it wasn’t initially done within the mainstream Christian community. It has never been accepted as such.Saying that initially it was done and nowadays it is not necessary, shows how the subject is increasingly being watered down.
When Paul is speaking of baptizing for the dead he is specifically targeting a group of heretics in Corinth who baptize but refuse to believe in the Resurrection. He is commenting on the absurdity of the concept. He is saying that if you baptize and yet believe that the ultimate endpoint of human existence is death, then that Baptism is worthless. Baptism only finds meaning if you believe that life after death is the ultimate goal which Christ desires for us.
If you continue reading 1 Cor. 15, you find that he is specifically warning the Corinthians against accepting this heretical sect:
Do not be led astray: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” Become sober and stop sinning. For some have no knowledge of God; I say this to your shame.
(1 Cor. 15:33-34)
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Noose001
Guest
If you continue reading 1 Cor. 15, you find that he is specifically warning the Corinthians against accepting this heretical sect:
I highly doubt that this is what Paul was teaching.Do not be led astray: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” Become sober and stop sinning. For some have no knowledge of God; I say this to your shame.
(1 Cor. 15:33-34)
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Noose001
Guest
A little background might help.
I moved from Catholic long ago to be a protestant. Been a protestant for so long but recently i have become uncomfortable with many many doctrines including what they teach about resurrection.
The idea that there’s a grand resurrection, one time event in the future and so called rapture is no longer palatable to me. Coz, i believe that resurrection is spiritual and continuous today and has been ongoing since some time in the 1st century. I thought this is what Catholics believed, i have argued with them telling them that Catholics do baptize for the dead because they believe the dead saints are actually not dead but are raised immediately and indwell those that are living to guide them.
So if Catholics are baptizing people in the name of dead saints for no good reason then i’m back to square one. Though it doesn’t really change what i believe was Paul’s teaching on resurrection, not only Paul but Peter too- that believers are raised and indwell living believers, together with Christ.
I moved from Catholic long ago to be a protestant. Been a protestant for so long but recently i have become uncomfortable with many many doctrines including what they teach about resurrection.
The idea that there’s a grand resurrection, one time event in the future and so called rapture is no longer palatable to me. Coz, i believe that resurrection is spiritual and continuous today and has been ongoing since some time in the 1st century. I thought this is what Catholics believed, i have argued with them telling them that Catholics do baptize for the dead because they believe the dead saints are actually not dead but are raised immediately and indwell those that are living to guide them.
So if Catholics are baptizing people in the name of dead saints for no good reason then i’m back to square one. Though it doesn’t really change what i believe was Paul’s teaching on resurrection, not only Paul but Peter too- that believers are raised and indwell living believers, together with Christ.
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CRM_Brother
Guest
I don’t know who you have been talking to, but the rapture is not Catholic doctrine. Yes, there is a final resurrection of the body, but we have no idea of what that practically means. All we know is that there is one based on Scripture.
When we speak of Resurrection in the Catholic Church, we speak of bodily resurrection. The soul itself never dies. It is immortal. Yes, the saints are dead. Their bodies are dead. The soul, however, cannot die. it is immortal. They have not been raised but are, in fact, awaiting the Resurrection of their bodies. Heaven, to Catholics, is temporary. We were not created for heaven. We were created for Earth. If we were not, then He would have not have created us with bodies.
You keep repeating ‘I believe’ and ‘I think’. It doesn’t really matter what we think. We, on our own, have no authority. It is only God’s self-revelation in the Scriptures which has authority. If what we believe is not supported in Scripture, then it really doesn’t mean anything.
When we speak of Resurrection in the Catholic Church, we speak of bodily resurrection. The soul itself never dies. It is immortal. Yes, the saints are dead. Their bodies are dead. The soul, however, cannot die. it is immortal. They have not been raised but are, in fact, awaiting the Resurrection of their bodies. Heaven, to Catholics, is temporary. We were not created for heaven. We were created for Earth. If we were not, then He would have not have created us with bodies.
You keep repeating ‘I believe’ and ‘I think’. It doesn’t really matter what we think. We, on our own, have no authority. It is only God’s self-revelation in the Scriptures which has authority. If what we believe is not supported in Scripture, then it really doesn’t mean anything.
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Noose001
Guest
Very well said, at least i’m getting to understand what you believe in details. I have a question,I don’t know who you have been talking to, but the rapture is not Catholic doctrine. Yes, there is a final resurrection of the body, but we have no idea of what that practically means. All we know is that there is one based on Scripture.
When we speak of Resurrection in the Catholic Church, we speak of bodily resurrection. The soul itself never dies. It is immortal. Yes, the saints are dead. Their bodies are dead. The soul, however, cannot die. it is immortal. They have not been raised but are, in fact, awaiting the Resurrection of their bodies. Heaven, to Catholics, is temporary. We were not created for heaven. We were created for Earth. If we were not, then He would have not have created us with bodies.
You keep repeating ‘I believe’ and ‘I think’. It doesn’t really matter what we think. We, on our own, have no authority. It is only God’s self-revelation in the Scriptures which has authority. If what we believe is not supported in Scripture, then it really doesn’t mean anything.
what do you believe happened in Matthew 27: 50-53 especially verse 53, isn’t that a resurrection?
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Vico
Guest
Greek huper can mean: with a view toward.…
For example: when a Catholic is baptized and renamed as st. John or st. Peter, isn’t that an example of baptism for the dead?
1 Cor 15: 29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
Baptism includes a declaration of belief in the resurrection of all the dead.If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized with a view toward them?
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Bithynian
Guest
There are two historically orthodox interpretations of 1 Cor 15:19.1 Cor 15: 29
(1) Vicarious/posthumous baptism has already been discussed. Given the scriptural witness and extra-biblical literature, it was a heretical practice amongst some outlier Christian communities in the early church.
(2) Another interpretation - which I tend to favour - is that ‘the dead’ (οἱ νεκροί hoi nekroi) here refers to the baptized person’s own dead (that is, spiritually dead and physically mortal) body and ‘on behalf of’ (ὑπέρ huper) more connotes ‘for the benefit of’ rather than ‘in place of’ or ‘substituting for’. In other words,
As others have mentioned, you’re attributing a very idiosyncratic interpretation of what Catholics (as well as Orthodox and many Protestants) do when assuming or providing a baptismal name. It is not related to the idea that “dead saints… indwell those that are living to guide them” (which Catholics certainly do not believe).Catholics are baptizing people in the name of dead saints for no good reason
@Tis_Bearself explained that it was mostly a practice of honouring saints and maintaining community cohesion.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
Douay-Rheims 1 Corinthians 15: 29:
Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?
[29] “That are baptized for the dead”: Some think the apostle here alludes to a ceremony then in use; but others, more probably, to the prayers and penitential labours, performed by the primitive Christians for the souls of the faithful departed; or to the baptism of afflictions and sufferings undergone for sinners spiritually dead.
And come home.
Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?
[29] “That are baptized for the dead”: Some think the apostle here alludes to a ceremony then in use; but others, more probably, to the prayers and penitential labours, performed by the primitive Christians for the souls of the faithful departed; or to the baptism of afflictions and sufferings undergone for sinners spiritually dead.
And come home.
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JGD
Guest
Might be better to say the soul never ceases to exist. Catholics do speak of spiritual death for the soul - the state of one’s soul when the supernatural life of God (sanctifying grace) is not present in it. (eg. Romans 6:20-23 and 1 John 5:16-17 )The soul itself never dies. It is immortal. Yes, the saints are dead. Their bodies are dead. The soul, however, cannot die. it is immortal.
I don’t understand what you mean here; could you explain? (Heaven exists eternally)Heaven, to Catholics, is temporary.
Again some clarification needed. God did create us in order that we could spend eternity with Him in heaven. (Those who reject Him will spend eternity in hell.) However first we must spend time on earth.We were not created for heaven.
(Your statement puzzled me at first; but then I think I figured out what you meant.)
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SeekerOfTruth7
Guest
What he was meaning was that we will be Heaven out of our bodies temporarily. We won’t be in Heaven forever but at the Resurrection God will create a New Earth and a New Heaven and we will live in glorified bodies on the New Earth eternally.I don’t understand what you mean here; could you explain? (Heaven exists eternally)
God did not create us for this reason. Heaven is a spiritual realm. God created us as soul and body. We were always meant to live forever in the material realm. God will fulfill this after the Last Judgement and the Resurrection when we are united with our glorified bodies, like Jesus body, and then living forever in the New Earth and New Heavens. It is a common misconception that we will be in Heaven forever as spirits. No. God created us to live fully in bodies.God did create us in order that we could spend eternity with Him in heaven. However first we must spend time on earth.
Hope this helps.
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