Resurrection

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rogerteder
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No, of course we can’t prove it. But the last two thousand years makes no sense without it. Jesus died practically alone. Nearly all of his followers had left him. What was it that gave the early apostles the stregth to do what they did? Early Christians overcame the Roman Empire by believing in Jesus. How can we explain this if when he died most of them probably felt all hope was lost? Therefore, for me, the course of history proves the resurrection. It is a miracle that I am here separated by thousands of miles from Israel and by thousands of years from the earthly life of Christ an yet he dominates my life. What a concept… The only reason this all is so is because 2000 years ago, an unkown carpenter from a little strip of land in the middle east, conquered death and burst light upon the world.
 
foundthelight said:
Can you disprove it? I ask this because if Herod and the High Priest could have paraded Jesus body around to counter the Christians they would have.
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If they had known the importance of the event, they certainly would have done that. Nobody cared enough about Jesus to have done that. In their eyes, he was a simple troublemaker who was easily taken care of. Also, they were probably too concerned about passover festivities to realize that God was sacrificing his own unblemished lamb to take away the sins of the world.
 
Ed_Rand said:
If they had known the importance of the event, they certainly would have done that. Nobody cared enough about Jesus to have done that. In their eyes, he was a simple troublemaker who was easily taken care of. Also, they were probably too concerned about passover festivities to realize that God was sacrificing his own unblemished lamb to take away the sins of the world.
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They were concerned enough after a short period to arrest Apostles and to send Saul out with an arrest warrant for any Christians he could find. They could have ended it all by producing a body. They couldn’t
 
Rogerteder said:
Can you prove the resurrection?
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What type of “proof” are you talking about? It is outside the realm of historical proof - it is purely a matter of faith.
  • There are no accounts of the resurrection itself.
  • There are only inconsistent and murky third-hand appearance stories.
  • The only related accounts concern only those who already knew and believed in Jesus (insiders).
  • There are no independent sources reporting the event.
  • If it were “proveable”, it would appear in every history book as the most significant event in human history.
 
I guess the OP has gone into hiding. Not much point in opening up a thread if the OP won’t participate further. I see he mentions no religion in his profile. Maybe just a Catholic baiter.
 
thistle said:
I guess the OP has gone into hiding. Not much point in opening up a thread if the OP won’t participate further. I see he mentions no religion in his profile. Maybe just a Catholic baiter.
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I am not a Catholic baiter. I am a Catholic and teach high school religion. I also coach football, so I haven’t had time to come back to the board and post. My question regarding proof of the resurrection comes from a historical perspective. Can we weigh the probability of the evidence, and conclude that Jesus did rise from the dead. I guees I have a number of questions.
  1. Do we have records that the apostles were martyred ?
  2. If we do (because we know they claimed to see the resurrected Jesus) then we would seem to be left with two possibilities. 1. The apostles actually did see Jesus and that is why (because they knew he was God–because he rose from the dead) they were so willing to die for Christ. 2. The apostles lied. BUT if they lied then they would know Jesus wasnt really God,and his whole mission was a lie. They would know it definitley because he didnt rise like he said he would.
    Can’t we conclude by the probability of the evidence(that which is most likely to occur) that the apostles in fact told the truth. It wouldnt make sense for them to die if THEY KNEW it wasnt true.
 
Rogerteder said:
I am not a Catholic baiter. I am a Catholic and teach high school religion. I also coach football, so I haven’t had time to come back to the board and post. My question regarding proof of the resurrection comes from a historical perspective. Can we weigh the probability of the evidence, and conclude that Jesus did rise from the dead. I guees I have a number of questions.
  1. Do we have records that the apostles were martyred ?
  2. If we do (because we know they claimed to see the resurrected Jesus) then we would seem to be left with two possibilities. 1. The apostles actually did see Jesus and that is why (because they knew he was God–because he rose from the dead) they were so willing to die for Christ. 2. The apostles lied. BUT if they lied then they would know Jesus wasnt really God,and his whole mission was a lie. They would know it definitley because he didnt rise like he said he would.
    Can’t we conclude by the probability of the evidence(that which is most likely to occur) that the apostles in fact told the truth. It wouldnt make sense for them to die if THEY KNEW it wasnt true.
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Did you read what Peter Kreeft said. I linked you to the article.

By the way it would have been better for discussion purposes for you to actually make it known that you are a Catholic (you withhold that in your profile) and tell us why you asked the question. You opened with just a short question and it could be assumed you are not a Catholic or even a non-Catholic Christian.
 
What can we tell you? It’s all in faith.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
 
thistle said:
Did you read what Peter Kreeft said. I linked you to the article.

By the way it would have been better for discussion purposes for you to actually make it known that you are a Catholic (you withhold that in your profile) and tell us why you asked the question. You opened with just a short question and it could be assumed you are not a Catholic or even a non-Catholic Christian.
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Yes great article!! It is a bit long for high school students. I am looking for a little shorter argument. Maybe I will write my own paper.
 
Rogerteder said:
  1. Do we have records that the apostles were martyred ?
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There are probably some fairly reliable records that some of them were.
  1. If we do (because we know they claimed to see the resurrected Jesus) .
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First, there are no first or second hand accounts of anyone seeing the resurrected Jesus. There are no first hand quotes from any apostle. What we do have are third hand accounts of various inconsistent “appearance type” stories written long after the event.
  1. The apostles actually did see Jesus and that is why (because they knew he was God–because he rose from the dead) they were so willing to die for Christ.
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There is no evidence that any apostle died because of belief in the resurrection. It is just as likely that they were killed for teaching against established belief systems and upsetting the status quo, the same as Jesus. We also don’t really know just how “willing to die” they were.
  1. The apostles lied. BUT if they lied then they would know Jesus wasnt really God,and his whole mission was a lie.
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Jesus spent about 3 years teaching and preaching about how we should live - is that whole mission a lie, regardless of whether or not the resurrection can be proved?
They would know it definitley because he didnt rise like he said he would.
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There is no way to historically know exactly what he said about that or even if he really said it. The gospels are not eyewitness accounts.
Can’t we conclude by the probability of the evidence (that which is most likely to occur) that the apostles in fact told the truth. It wouldnt make sense for them to die if THEY KNEW it wasnt true.
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Knowing and believing are very different. Many people have died because they believed something to be true - that aliens were coming to get their spirits, that their god wanted them to be a suicide bomber, etc. What would it take for you to be convinced that what they believed was true?

Academic historians may consider such things but they base most of their analysis on tangible evidence and independent attestations, of which there are none. Again, if the resurrection was historically proveable, no serious historian would leave it out of their history texts.
 
Rogerteder said:
I am not a Catholic baiter. I am a Catholic and teach high school religion. I also coach football, so I haven’t had time to come back to the board and post. My question regarding proof of the resurrection comes from a historical perspective. Can we weigh the probability of the evidence, and conclude that Jesus did rise from the dead. I guees I have a number of questions.
  1. Do we have records that the apostles were martyred ?
  2. If we do (because we know they claimed to see the resurrected Jesus) then we would seem to be left with two possibilities. 1. The apostles actually did see Jesus and that is why (because they knew he was God–because he rose from the dead) they were so willing to die for Christ. 2. The apostles lied. BUT if they lied then they would know Jesus wasnt really God,and his whole mission was a lie. They would know it definitley because he didnt rise like he said he would.
    Can’t we conclude by the probability of the evidence(that which is most likely to occur) that the apostles in fact told the truth. It wouldnt make sense for them to die if THEY KNEW it wasnt true.
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The Evangelical writer, Lee Strobel, has written two very good books that deal with the subject intelligently, but for a popular audience: The Case for Christ (also produced as a DVD) and The Case for the Real Jesus (which specifically deals with the Resurrection. Although he is not Catholic, Strobel’s Case for Christ is frequently recommended by people like Mitch Pacwa and John Martignoni.
 
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