RETITLED: Why do people misunderstand clear instructions in the Koran that require Muslims to convert the world by any means?

[StevieD]

The Judge who sentenced Faisal Shahzad to life imprisonment suggested that he spend some of his time considering the Koran’s more peaceful injunctions. She appears to have misunderstood the Koran, it quite clearly and specifically requires Muslims to attack infidels (you and me) as the prisoner confirmed in his speech to the court. The earlier and more peaceful verses in the Koran are superseded by the later violent ones, as all Muslims know.
Why do people misunderstand clear instructions in the Koran that require Muslims to convert the world by any means (truth, lies, war, false treaties etc.) in fact by any means at all as long as it works? No matter what means you adopt to convert the world, you can find verses in support and so the violence will never end.
Does anyone still believe that ‘Islam’ means ‘peace’? It does not it means ‘SUBMISSION’ and that is what they want of you and me because the Koran tells them that everyone will submit and that it is their role to achieve it.

 

[MarianD]

The Qur’an doesn’t preach violence as much as the Hadith (the words, deeds, and sayings of Muhammad inspired by Allah as he claimed) does. Both preach violence, but it’s in the Hadith where you see true terror that blasphemes the Name of God.

 

[Sufjon]

Why do people misunderstand clear instructions in the Koran that require Muslims to convert the world by any means (truth, lies, war, false treaties etc.) in fact by any means at all as long as it works? No matter what means you adopt to convert the world, you can find verses in support and so the violence will never end.

Hi SteveD: This is an interesting post. Just to clarify - based on the statement above, you are wondering why the 2 plus million Muslims in the US aren’t actively trying to convert us?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Janet1983]

Does anyone still believe that ‘Islam’ means ‘peace’? It does not it means ‘SUBMISSION’ and that is what they want of you and me because the Koran tells them that everyone will submit and that it is their role to achieve it.

Yes of course does it mean submission. The question is however who is submitting to whom…

1. Muslims to Allah
2. Muslims to Allah and the rest of the world can submit to them, convert (and submit to Allah) or die…

In the UK wearing a crucifix can cause a problem for a Catholic phlebotomist and sharia courts can settle private law cases. Any religion is good unless it is concerning Christians. Considering that the UK is essentially a Christian country and that the Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church of England that is a rather unsettling development.

In the US it isn’t as bad, but we are on the way there.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

It was once said of theSupreme Court, and tends to apply to all judges: “Often in Error; Never in Doubt.”

 

[Sufjon]

…sharia courts can settle private law cases. Any religion is good unless it is concerning Christians. Considering that the UK is essentially a Christian country and that the Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church of England that is a rather unsettling development.

In the US it isn’t as bad, but we are on the way there.

Hi Janet 1983: Sharia courts in the UK are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case. This sounds to me like one has to agree to be subject to the Sharia arbitration tribunals, so those who chose to remain outside of that system (like Christians) have no exposure to that system.

Could the Sharia system in the UK be compared then to the Beth Din of America, which is a rabbinical court in the US? That court serves the the North American Jewish community in matters of obtaining Jewish divorces, adjudicating commercial disputes stemming from divorce, business and community issues. So my question is, how is the Sharia system in the UK different than the rabbinical court in the US, and as a follow-on question, do you find the rabbinical court in the US to be an alarming development as well?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Could the Sharia system in the UK be compared then to the Beth Din of America, which is a rabbinical court in the US? That court serves the the North American Jewish community in matters of obtaining Jewish divorces, adjudicating commercial disputes stemming from divorce, business and community issues. So my question is, how is the Sharia system in the UK different than the rabbinical court in the US, and as a follow-on question, do you find the rabbinical court in the US to be an alarming development as well?

Your friend
Sufjon

Forget the arbitration tribunals what I find alarming are the muslims who fancy themselves the sole judge, jury and executioner of American people. Take faisal shahzad for perfect example, he planned to execute his own justice with a planned terrorist attack at Times Square - that, thank goodness, failed. Taken what faisal shahzad said *“Brace yourselves, the war with muslims has just begun,… The defeat of the United States is imminent, and will happen in the near future.” * it is pretty clear he not the only one who thinks he’s judge, jury and executioner of American people

and as a follow-on question, do you find rabbis attitude towards the US to be just as alarming development as well?

 

[StevieD]

Hi SteveD: This is an interesting post. Just to clarify - based on the statement above, you are wondering why the 2 plus million Muslims in the US aren’t actively trying to convert us?

Your friend
Sufjon

How many of the 2 million plus Muslims in the US are American converts? Many of them.So some people have been actively trying to convert the US and succeeding. Young men in the middle east are encouraged by Islamic teachers to move to the US and marry a citizen and thus get citizenship and then convert the wife and then her family, the US is their biggest target for conversion. Once they rule the US, they feel that theycan rule the world.
Many Muslims are horrified by violent attacks in the US not because they abhor violence but because they see such attacks as counter-productive to national conversion by stealth.

 

[Sam_777]

The earlier and more peaceful verses in the Koran are superseded by the later violent ones, as all Muslims know.

Yes http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif,

That’s what is called “the abrogating and abrogated verses in Quran”, those peaceful verses during Madina time have been replaced by the war verses in Mecca time, and the last chapter of Quran revealed to Muhammed was chapter 9 (aka., Bara’a), so it contains the updated instructions for Muslims per this hadith:

*Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 129:
The last Sura that was revealed was Bara’a, and the last Verse that was revealed was: “They ask you for a legal verdict, Say: Allah’s directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs.” (4.176) *
(E)

 

[Sufjon]

How many of the 2 million plus Muslims in the US are American converts? Many of them.So some people have been actively trying to convert the US and succeeding. Young men in the middle east are encouraged by Islamic teachers to move to the US and marry a citizen and thus get citizenship and then convert the wife and then her family, the US is their biggest target for conversion. Once they rule the US, they feel that theycan rule the world.
Many Muslims are horrified by violent attacks in the US not because they abhor violence but because they see such attacks as counter-productive to national conversion by stealth.

Hi SteveieD: I see. Of the ones that are actively trying to convert people, what sort of evangelization activities are they up to? How many Christians have been converted in the US through the program you described where they move here and marry a Christian? Are there any numbers on that?

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Forget the arbitration tribunals…

/QUOTE]

Hi John Paul Jones: So there is no threat with the Sharia law takeover of western court system, or do we have more to cover on that?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[StevieD]

Hi SteveieD: I see. Of the ones that are actively trying to convert people, what sort of evangelization activities are they up to? How many Christians have been converted in the US through the program you described where they move here and marry a Christian? Are there any numbers on that?

Your friend,
Sufjon

So, first Muslims are not trying to convert anyone, then well OK they might be but they’re not the only ones. Make up your mind.
When was the last time a Christian tried to blow up as many people as possible in Times Square with the aim of getting us to submit to a theocracy and to avenge the people of Pakistan for the humiliation of living on US handouts? Try to find a ‘moderate’ Muslim who will condemn him, you might have some difficulty.
Shazad said that the current situation is just the start and he knows what he is talking about, he has been to the training camps, we haven’t.

 

[Sufjon]

So, first Muslims are not trying to convert anyone, then well OK they might be but they’re not the only ones. Make up your mind.
When was the last time a Christian tried to blow up as many people as possible in Times Square with the aim of getting us to submit to a theocracy and to avenge the people of Pakistan for the humiliation of living on US handouts? Try to find a ‘moderate’ Muslim who will condemn him, you might have some difficulty.
Shazad said that the current situation is just the start and he knows what he is talking about, he has been to the training camps, we haven’t.

Hi Steve D: I’m just trying to accurately understand your point of view. You started the thread with a line that said that Muslims were trying to convert us. I want you to be able to express all of your points, but to do that we have to stayed focused and move through each point. So, I’m trying to establish whether or not you feel there are conversion efforts going on. At the start of the thread you mentioned a Muslim objective of converting us. In the last thread it sounds like you are saying that Muslims aren’t trying to convert anyone, so I am confused and just trying to get clarification on that. I don’t think we can properly express your views by moving to another point before we clarify the first point. If you can tell me one way or the other, then we can move on to the next point, but I think it’s important that we cover them so that I can properly understand your message.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[autdrew]

So, first Muslims are not trying to convert anyone, then well OK they might be but they’re not the only ones. Make up your mind.
When was the last time a Christian tried to blow up as many people as possible in Times Square with the aim of getting us to submit to a theocracy and to avenge the people of Pakistan for the humiliation of living on US handouts? Try to find a ‘moderate’ Muslim who will condemn him, you might have some difficulty.
Shazad said that the current situation is just the start and he knows what he is talking about, he has been to the training camps, we haven’t.

And this is the point…the jihadists have been telling us flat out, what they are doing & what they intend to keep doing. They dont mince words & they have not just issued threats, they have actually followed through. The dawa followers have been working hard to create a false notion that islam is under attack by bigoted, horrible, intolerant people & must be given special protections NO religion is allowed to have. In actuality, they have been attacking us & the actual amount of substantiated crimes committed against them is almost nonexistent. Jews & whites have more hate crimes against them than muslims but that doesnt fit the rhetoric about us, so you only hear about how poor muslims MIGHT be targeted because of speech against what islamists are ACTUALLY doing or telling people what the teachings/history have been. Political correctness made people so scared to “offend” that they would rather bury not only their heads in the sand but insist you bury yours as well. Meanwhile, the islamists are telling us they are not going to stop targeting us, no matter how nice we are, how tolerant we are, how many special exceptions we make. What will it take before we finally take them at their word? After all, they have shown us over & over, they have no problem living up to their rhetoric.

It is positively orwellian!

 

[JHow]

…I’m trying to establish whether or not you feel there are conversion efforts going on…

Sufjon: Yes. Muslims are trying to convert people. I don’t think that is a suprising statement or one that should require a huge burden of proof from a poster. One of the places they have had some success in the U.S. is in prison. I have read a number of articles on this subject in the press over the years, and it is very easy to find similar with a quick search. From the time of Malcom X to the present day, this effort has been well-publicized. Here are some sample stories about prison recruitment:

pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/show_homegrown.html

telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1366667/Muslims-tried-to-convert-me-in-jail.html

kyl.senate.gov/legis_center/subdocs/101403_wallerl.pdf

isna.net/articles/America/Islam-In-Prison.aspx

 

[JHow]

Hi Janet 1983: Sharia courts in the UK are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case. This sounds to me like one has to agree to be subject to the Sharia arbitration tribunals, so those who chose to remain outside of that system (like Christians) have no exposure to that system…

Technically, yes, they have to agree, but how many muslim wives are NOT going to agree? How much pressure will they face to agree? What are the consequences if one doesn’t agree? The second problem is, once they do agree, the panels will apply a decidely lopsided Sharia system that requires more proof from the woman and almost none from the man, particularly with respect to divorce.

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon: Yes. Muslims are trying to convert people. I don’t think that is a suprising statement or one that should require a huge burden of proof from a poster. One of the places they have had some success in the U.S. is in prison. I have read a number of articles on this subject in the press over the years, and it is very easy to find similar with a quick search. From the time of Malcom X to the present day, this effort has been well-publicized. Here are some sample stories about prison recruitment:

pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/show_homegrown.html

telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1366667/Muslims-tried-to-convert-me-in-jail.html

kyl.senate.gov/legis_center/subdocs/101403_wallerl.pdf

isna.net/articles/America/Islam-In-Prison.aspx

Thank you JHow: I am aware that there are prison ministries from most faiths. My local Catholic church has one. Do you think these efforts are producing better behaved prisoners, and how are the Islamic ministries different from other prison ministries?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Technically, yes, they have to agree, but how many muslim wives are NOT going to agree? How much pressure will they face to agree? What are the consequences if one doesn’t agree? The second problem is, once they do agree, the panels will apply a decidely lopsided Sharia system that requires more proof from the woman and almost none from the man, particularly with respect to divorce.

Hi JHOW: Yes, I will agree that there is a tremendous amount of peer pressure in any group. I wonder how many Hasid wives could opt out of the Jewish system? The problem is that we become entangled very closely with the communities in which we are raised or in which we live. It doesn’t mean that I agree with much of the treatment of Muslim women. I don’t. The question on this matter was the larger context of society and the impact of Islamic courts on the judicial process in the UK. The answer I think is none if you are not a Muslim. My point was to draw on similarities between that and the Jewish courts in America. The poster had expressed alarm over that the system in the UK. The point is that there is plenty of precedent outside of the Islamic example in the UK.

You friend,
Sufjon

 

[StevieD]

Sufjon: Yes. Muslims are trying to convert people. I don’t think that is a suprising statement or one that should require a huge burden of proof from a poster. One of the places they have had some success in the U.S. is in prison. I have read a number of articles on this subject in the press over the years, and it is very easy to find similar with a quick search. From the time of Malcom X to the present day, this effort has been well-publicized. Here are some sample stories about prison recruitment:

pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/show_homegrown.html

telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1366667/Muslims-tried-to-convert-me-in-jail.html

kyl.senate.gov/legis_center/subdocs/101403_wallerl.pdf

isna.net/articles/America/Islam-In-Prison.aspx

Thanks JHow. The blacks have, in the main, been the source of US converts by Muslims and this is achieved by telling them that they have been victims of the myth of white supremacy. What the converts don’t know is that blacks were enslaved in Saudi until 1961(yes 1961) and in Sudan still are. The released Saudi, Islamic slaves were not provided for in any way (no cow and an acre for them), many of their children and grandchildren live under the highways and beg for a living, in the richest country the world has ever seen. In Egypt any black will be treated as a third class citizen no matter what his religion is. The more black converts who go to Saudi for the pilgrimage or other middle eastern countries as tourists, the fewer will come back Muslim.

 

[Sufjon]

Thanks JHow. The blacks have, in the main, been the source of US converts by Muslims and this is achieved by telling them that they have been victims of the myth of white supremacy. What the converts don’t know is that blacks were enslaved in Saudi until 1961(yes 1961) and in Sudan still are. The released Saudi, Islamic slaves were not provided for in any way (no cow and an acre for them), many of their children and grandchildren live under the highways and beg for a living, in the richest country the world has ever seen. In Egypt any black will be treated as a third class citizen no matter what his religion is. The more black converts who go to Saudi for the pilgrimage or other middle eastern countries as tourists, the fewer will come back Muslim.

Hi StevieD: Personally, I’ll stay away from addressing the racial references you made if I may, although you are free to do use those references if you wish. Personally I’m not comfortable with them. However, I am still interested in hearing your ideas about the threat that’s concerning you. Is it your feeling that prison ministries are the means by which Islam intends to take over the west? If so, are there any numbers on how many converted Muslims stay out of prison once released as opposed to the overall number of prisoners who end up back in prison after being released? I’m wondering how many become converts roaming free through society after recidivism. death sentences and life terms are taken into account. Not to say that having converted Muslims free in society is a bad thing, but supposing the prison ministries are the source of new Muslims, I’d like to know how many are being created in this manner.

Your friend
Sufjon