RETITLED: Why do people misunderstand clear instructions in the Koran that require Muslims to convert the world by any means?

[StevieD]

Hi StevieD: Personally, I’ll stay away from addressing the racial references you made if I may, although you are free to do use those references if you wish. Personally I’m not comfortable with them. However, I am still interested in hearing your ideas about the threat that’s concerning you. Is it your feeling that prison ministries are the means by which Islam intends to take over the west? If so, are there any numbers on how many converted Muslims stay out of prison once released as opposed to the overall number of prisoners who end up back in prison after being released? I’m wondering how many become converts roaming free through society after recidivism. death sentences and life terms are taken into account. Not to say that having converted Muslims free in society is a bad thing, but supposing the prison ministries are the source of new Muslims, I’d like to know how many are being created in this manner.

Your friend
Sufjon

I don’t know, perhaps you would like to find out and report back to us. As far as I can discover, the kind of fundamental Islam to which prisoners are often exposed (as expressed in Islamic prison gang culture) generally denies the right of the state to make and enforce laws at all (handy for a criminal) so they probably do not use the same measure of ‘recidivism’ as we do. If they end up back inside it will be society’s fault (i.e. ours) and not theirs. There are prisons in the UK where it is deemed far safer to be a Muslim than not and so presumably ‘offers that cannot be refused’ are being made. Men from nominally Muslim backgrounds often become suddenly very ‘religious’ inside to avoid ‘problems’.

 

[JHow]

Hi JHOW: Yes, I will agree that there is a tremendous amount of peer pressure in any group. I wonder how many Hasid wives could opt out of the Jewish system? The problem is that we become entangled very closely with the communities in which we are raised or in which we live. It doesn’t mean that I agree with much of the treatment of Muslim women. I don’t. The question on this matter was the larger context of society and the impact of Islamic courts on the judicial process in the UK. The answer I think is none if you are not a Muslim. My point was to draw on similarities between that and the Jewish courts in America. The poster had expressed alarm over that the system in the UK. The point is that there is plenty of precedent outside of the Islamic example in the UK.

You friend,
Sufjon

To my thinking , ANY separate court system violates the principle of equal treatment before the law. In America, we already had a debate about “separate but equal” (in the context of schools, water fountains, bus seats, etc.), and “separate” lost.

To the point about arbitration, it is a source of anquish even in civil matters. Take the example of home building industry in the U.S. Many builders over the years have tried to include mandatory arbitration clauses in their home-building contracts. Even today, these clauses sometimes slip in, despite the courts saying they can’t/should not do this. The arbitration is almost never perceived as delivering “fair” results, particularly by the buyer.

Your point that sharia courts shouldn’t matter to non-muslims, since they won’t be involved, is to say that we should allow an injustice to stand.

 

[JHow]

Thank you JHow: I am aware that there are prison ministries from most faiths. My local Catholic church has one. Do you think these efforts are producing better behaved prisoners, and how are the Islamic ministries different from other prison ministries?

Your friend
Sufjon

I have no idea if the efforts of Muslims, Catholics, or Evangelicals are producing better prisoners. For Catholics, visiting those in prison is a corporal work of mercy, so the objective is not necessarily to get the prisoner to behave better, although this may be a side effect of realizing that someone else cares about him.

With regard to the Islamic ministries in prison, I cited it as a specific example of muslim efforts at conversion, which you seemed to doubt.

 

[Sufjon]

To my thinking , ANY separate court system violates the principle of equal treatment before the law. In America, we already had a debate about “separate but equal” (in the context of schools, water fountains, bus seats, etc.), and “separate” lost.

To the point about arbitration, it is a source of anquish even in civil matters. Take the example of home building industry in the U.S. Many builders over the years have tried to include mandatory arbitration clauses in their home-building contracts. Even today, these clauses sometimes slip in, despite the courts saying they can’t/should not do this. The arbitration is almost never perceived as delivering “fair” results, particularly by the buyer.

Your point that sharia courts shouldn’t matter to non-muslims, since they won’t be involved, is to say that we should allow an injustice to stand.

Hi JHow: The overriding authority of the US judicial system conveyed the authority on the rabbinical system in the US and the British court system gave the same authority to the sharia courts in the UK. Both national judicial systems found that allowing these courts to operate in their territories to be consistent with the laws of those nations, so legally, I can’t say that there is any injustice. I’m clear that you’re against the sharia courts in the UK. Do you have the same reservations about the rabbinical courts in the US?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)

How many different interpretations are there in different Qurans of this verse?

Theres a couple no?

 

[Sufjon]

I have no idea if the efforts of Muslims, Catholics, or Evangelicals are producing better prisoners. For Catholics, visiting those in prison is a corporal work of mercy, so the objective is not necessarily to get the prisoner to behave better, although this may be a side effect of realizing that someone else cares about him.

With regard to the Islamic ministries in prison, I cited it as a specific example of muslim efforts at conversion, which you seemed to doubt.

Hi JHow: I guess I need to be more clear. I apologize if I didn’t do a good job at being clear before. Here goes:

-I don’t recall offering an opinion as to whether or not Muslims were actively converting people. My recollection was that I asked in what ways they were doing that.

-My follow-on question was in what other ways are they were trying to convert people, since people who enter the prison system seldom stay out of the system for long, I’m not finding any reason to expect that evangelization of prisoners can produce many converts in the community outside, because many people who get out either cycle back into the system, or can’t get out of it in the first place because they have life sentences or death sentences.

-The concern of the original poster was that there was a danger from Islam and that there was a significant organized effort to convert as many Muslims as possible.

Our dialogs to date have left me with my original questions, which are:

-What large scale evangelization efforts are underway by Muslims in the US, and

-What is the danger from the Muslim community in the US in general and also specifically in relation to evangelization if they were in fact evangelizing to any large extent (which we still haven’t established)?

*As a side note I am curious as to why the original poster never answers, but you do. I appreciate your responses and enjoy talking to you, but that is rather curious.

I have lots of other questions, but I can’t move on to them until we answer these.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[StevieD]

Hi JHow: I guess I need to be more clear. I apologize if I didn’t do a good job at being clear before. Here goes:

-I don’t recall offering an opinion as to whether or not Muslims were actively converting people. My recollection was that I asked in what ways they were doing that.

-My follow-on question was in what other ways are they were trying to convert people, since people who enter the prison system seldom stay out of the system for long, I’m not finding any reason to expect that evangelization of prisoners can produce many converts in the community outside, because many people who get out either cycle back into the system, or can’t get out of it in the first place because they have life sentences or death sentences.

-The concern of the original poster was that there was a danger from Islam and that there was a significant organized effort to convert as many Muslims as possible.

Our dialogs to date have left me with my original questions, which are:

-What large scale evangelization efforts are underway by Muslims in the US, and

-What is the danger from the Muslim community in the US in general and also specifically in relation to evangelization if they were in fact evangelizing to any large extent (which we still haven’t established)?

*As a side note I am curious as to why the original poster never answers, but you do. I appreciate your responses and enjoy talking to you, but that is rather curious.

I have lots of other questions, but I can’t move on to them until we answer these.

Your friend,
Sufjon

The original poster has a great deal to do outside this forum. ‘I can’t move on until…’ Is this all about you then? Some of your points might not have been answered to your satisfaction but they have to the person doing the answering! Look, friend, read the Koran - they HAVE to convert the world. If I were a Muslim male who has read the Koran and is really committed to my religion, I would be doing my best to convert the world by the sword, by persuasion, by obfuscation, by any means whatever. This is the surest way to the Muslim heaven of an eternal harem. Read the Koran and understand to some extent - they believe it. Also look up Walid Shoebat an ex-Muslim, ex-terrorist Arabic speaker who knows what the game is all about - which is to get you to accept Mohammed and Allah and soon or suffer for it.

 

[JHow]

Hi JHow: The overriding authority of the US judicial system conveyed the authority on the rabbinical system in the US and the British court system gave the same authority to the sharia courts in the UK. Both national judicial systems found that allowing these courts to operate in their territories to be consistent with the laws of those nations, so legally, I can’t say that there is any injustice. I’m clear that you’re against the sharia courts in the UK. Do you have the same reservations about the rabbinical courts in the US?

Your friend
Sufjon

Sure, I do have reservations about rabbinical courts. In practice, however, they are less threatening. They appear to be more fair than islamic law. They also appear to avoid the contentious divorce cases (punting them to the real courts), and they are primarily focused on religious rather than civil matters (who is a real Jew, who receives a real Jewish divorce, who is doing real kosher butchery). I discern that their primary intent is to serve as a religious enterprise, but also including an abritration function, which they don’t abuse. If they became abusive, I would argue that they should change or be done away with.

Sharia, however, does not function as just religious law - in muslim majority nations it becomes both civil and religious law. Sharia does not appear to deal fairly with women in divorce situations (as evidenced in UK). I don’t have the reciprocal good feeling about the intentions of muslims who are instituting these courts, because it looks very much to me like they intend to create a separate legal, religious, and social system within our society. The chief difference lies in muslim behavior and history.

That the US Supreme court permitted (or ignored) a certain practice of arbitration or allowed certain contracts, or even permits sharia courts to one day function here says nothing at all aobut whether justice is being served. You know this. Legal is not the same as just.

There is absolutely injustice if a man can divorce his wife with a single word while the wife must produce witnesses and plead her case to a male muslim judge predisposed to assume male superiority in all things.

 

[BlueShadow123]

the korans laws are much like the bibles old testaments laws. So next time you think ‘stoning somebody is wrong’, maybe you should check out the bible, because back in the day, it was okay to do aswell.

 

[GaryTaylor]

the korans laws are much like the bibles old testaments laws. So next time you think ‘stoning somebody is wrong’, maybe you should check out the bible, because back in the day, it was okay to do aswell.

Yes but do we promote this “today”?

Not Christian either, Old Testamant Jewish law no?

 

[Sufjon]

Sure, I do have reservations about rabbinical courts. In practice, however, they are less threatening. They appear to be more fair than islamic law. They also appear to avoid the contentious divorce cases (punting them to the real courts), and they are primarily focused on religious rather than civil matters (who is a real Jew, who receives a real Jewish divorce, who is doing real kosher butchery). I discern that their primary intent is to serve as a religious enterprise, but also including an abritration function, which they don’t abuse. If they became abusive, I would argue that they should change or be done away with.

Sharia, however, does not function as just religious law - in muslim majority nations it becomes both civil and religious law. Sharia does not appear to deal fairly with women in divorce situations (as evidenced in UK). I don’t have the reciprocal good feeling about the intentions of muslims who are instituting these courts, because it looks very much to me like they intend to create a separate legal, religious, and social system within our society. The chief difference lies in muslim behavior and history.

That the US Supreme court permitted (or ignored) a certain practice of arbitration or allowed certain contracts, or even permits sharia courts to one day function here says nothing at all aobut whether justice is being served. You know this. Legal is not the same as just.

There is absolutely injustice if a man can divorce his wife with a single word while the wife must produce witnesses and plead her case to a male muslim judge predisposed to assume male superiority in all things.

Hi JHow: I understand your point, however, the original thread was whether or not the Sharia courts in the UK represented a component of some sort of takeover or threat. That appeared to be the vein of the original poster’s point. I’m actually not interested in the merits of any court or even religion. My interest is what is the threat of these courts to the public at large outside of the Muslim community and how they represent a Muslim encroachment of society in general if other such courts exists for other religions. The fairness of those courts is not the topic. The argument may or may not have it’s merits, but I can’t let myself be drawn off topic. Perhaps someday you and I can start a tread on that, but I want to get through this first. I want to focus on the poster’s concerns.

Your freind
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

The original poster has a great deal to do outside this forum. ‘I can’t move on until…’ Is this all about you then? Some of your points might not have been answered to your satisfaction but they have to the person doing the answering! Look, friend, read the Koran - they HAVE to convert the world. If I were a Muslim male who has read the Koran and is really committed to my religion, I would be doing my best to convert the world by the sword, by persuasion, by obfuscation, by any means whatever. This is the surest way to the Muslim heaven of an eternal harem. Read the Koran and understand to some extent - they believe it. Also look up Walid Shoebat an ex-Muslim, ex-terrorist Arabic speaker who knows what the game is all about - which is to get you to accept Mohammed and Allah and soon or suffer for it.

Hi SteveieD: So my question is what are the specific broad initiatives on the part of the general Muslim community to convert the world? Yes, there are some fanatics, like there are fanatics anywhere, but I want to know about these large scale initiatives. Can you tell me about some of these aside from some prison ministries? Are there Muslim Televangelists and those sorts of things? What are we talking about in terms of tangible initiatives? Here is one thing I am wondering: 19 zealots caused sheer havoc in one day here nine years ago, so I am wondering how it is that if millions of Muslims have the same commitment, why are they having such trouble producing any significant activities since then? If they are quiet or covert activities, what are they? You are telling people to beware, and I am listening to you, but I want to know what to beware of.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[StevieD]

Hi JHow: I understand your point, however, the original thread was whether or not the Sharia courts in the UK represented a component of some sort of takeover or threat. That appeared to be the vein of the original poster’s point. I’m actually not interested in the merits of any court or even religion. My interest is what is the threat of these courts to the public at large outside of the Muslim community and how they represent a Muslim encroachment of society in general if other such courts exists for other religions. The fairness of those courts is not the topic. The argument may or may not have it’s merits, but I can’t let myself be drawn off topic. Perhaps someday you and I can start a tread on that, but I want to get through this first. I want to focus on the poster’s concerns.

Your freind
Sufjon

The threat is that women are at an enormous disadvantage in a Sharia court. The testimony of a woman is worth half that of a man. Also that muslim women might be ‘encouraged’ to use Sharia courts (where they are at an enormous disadvantage over secular courts) and so lose rights that you and I would consider normal.
Rather than trying to educate yourself on matters Islamic through the generosity of people here, why not do some basic enquiries on the net? Just Google ‘Sharia’.

 

[StevieD]

Hi SteveieD: So my question is what are the specific broad initiatives on the part of the general Muslim community to convert the world? Yes, there are some fanatics, like there are fanatics anywhere, but I want to know about these large scale initiatives. Can you tell me about some of these aside from some prison ministries? Are there Muslim Televangelists and those sorts of things? What are we talking about in terms of tangible initiatives? Here is one thing I am wondering: 19 zealots caused sheer havoc in one day here nine years ago, so I am wondering how it is that if millions of Muslims have the same commitment, why are they having such trouble producing any significant activities since then? If they are quiet or covert activities, what are they? You are telling people to beware, and I am listening to you, but I want to know what to beware of.

Your friend
Sufjon

Islam!

 

[BlueShadow123]

Yes but do we promote this “today”?

Not Christian either, Old Testamant Jewish law no?

Just because time went by do you really think god says his laws change?

And incase you’re wondering, yes I do think stoning is wrong. I disagree with gods laws in the old testament. I think they are ridiculous and harsh and un-needed, but I’m not god and its not my call. but the way he sentenced death to almost everybody is just… well, i just disagree with it. And I know it must be ‘un-christian of me’ to disagree with such harsh-ness. I don’t care, i think its horrible.

 

[Sufjon]

Islam!

Hi StevieD: I gathered that’s what you meant. The question is then what is it about Islam that I should fear? You mentioned conversion of non-Muslims, but we are still trying to establish that there is anything like that happening on a large scale. So, since we have only been able to identify prison ministries, I have to assume that the evangelizing mode of conversion can be removed from the list unless you have something to add to that. If you don’t, then what is the next thing I have to fear from Islam? You have sent a warning, and I am listening, but so far I don’t have anything concrete to heed, unless I end up in prison or submit to a Sharia court in the UK. But I am not in prison and I don’t live in the UK, nor am I inclined to travel to the UK and then voluntarily submit to a Sharia court. So, unless I missed some point on these two items, what am I looking for on the fear list?

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Rather than trying to educate yourself on matters Islamic through the generosity of people here, why not do some basic enquiries on the net? Just Google ‘Sharia’.

Hi StevieD;: Actually I am not very interested in Islam, so I am not inclined to look any of it up. I am asking you about it because you have sent out a warning about Islam being committed to taking over the world. So, I want to know your reasoning in order to determine whether or not I should take your post seriously. Can you help me with that? So far we haven’t established any large scale evangelization efforts, and concluded that I am not likely to be brought before a Sharia court. Help me understand, that’s all I’m asking.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[autdrew]

The prosecutor who prosecuted the “blind sheikh” (ringleader of 1st WTC bombing 93) wrote a very detailed book outlining the large scale efforts in the US regarding sharia. It is called The Grand Jihad by Andrew McCarthy.
He had access to huge amounts of classified info over the years because of his job. He details the ways in which the Muslim Brotherhood has set up numerous front organizations & linked up with other “moderate” groups to push and agitate for separate rights. They use a process called dawa, or soft jihad. One of their front groups is CAIR, called an indited co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation trial. They are the main media relations arm & he shows a memo by the Brotherhood specifically talking about creating them. Since they were created, they became the go to group for media to get the islamic perspective of everything, which of course, if all our fault. It is mainly due to them but others, that we have this myth of “Islamophobia” and the idea that reporting honestly on all things islam is tantamount to hate speech.They have been pushing the extreme deference to all things islam in the public square by blaming everything on bigotry, no matter how valid.(This is a big tenant of sharia, no one, especially nonmuslims are allowed to say anything “offensive” about the profit, islam, the koran or sharia. Offensive in the eye of the beholder because it also includes revealing actual teachings & actual statements made by actual people) They say themselves that they picked up that trick from the left & groups like Sharpton’s.

There is an estimation by a “moderate” group that at least 80% of the mosques in the states have been taken over by the “radicals”. The US actually HELPS in this effort because we have special visas for religious leaders, whom we do not vet nor follow up on (the blind sheikh comes to mind) CAIR worked to keep any investigations on mosques from happening much because they go to the media claiming bigotry, so we stop.
The saudis have funded thousands of mosques around the us with the stipulation that they teach the salafist point of view. That is the notion of returning to the “pure” islam of the very beginning. Meaning all that stuff in the koran is what they REALLY believe in. Any other interpretation of the koran is emphatically not allowed.They have also established schools. One of which is in VA & their very 1st valedictorian went on to be arrested for attempting to commit a terrorist act.
They have actually created enclaves within the US.Very much like the mormon ones people were so freaked out about. There is at least one in upstate NY that has its own weapons training facility that does not allow outsiders but claims to be a business to provide jobs for the residents. Within these mosques & communities it is believed that the US does not have jurisdiction over them because they say they only recognize sharia as the only legitimate law of the world. It has been openly stated that if a law of a state is in conflict with sharia, they teach to ignore the “unjust” law. Since sharia cannot be unjust as it comes from God, that appears to mean the secular government.
Within the universities there is another front group for the Brotherhood. The MSA, Muslim Student Association. These are the students you see openly espousing antisemitism because of “Palestine” . They have nearly 600 chapters in the US & Canada. These are the ones who shout down or outright shut down, many speakers, programs etc they deem as “antiislamic” of “islamophobic” “zionist” any other name you can think of. Their freedom of speech is used to silence those they dont want to speak (or have anyone hear). They are the ones who get universitites to use tax payer money to install footbaths, with the ridiculous notion that they can be used by everyone. Not isolated events.
They graduate & move on to the Muslim American Society of MSA. They are the ones agitating for special rights (a common theme) I believe they were the ones behind the “flying imams” & the cab drivers demanding special right to not carry dogs or alcohol, footbaths etc. They are heavily involved in the Somali muslim enclaves of Minneapolis (surprise! where the imams & cabbies are!) and there have been numerous cases of Somali young men being recruited for al shabab & some going back to islam for jihad.

There is A LOT more. See also Willful Blindness by Andrew McCarthy & the Stealth Jihad by Robert Spenser. See also Steven Emmerson, jihad expert who has spent decades working for our govt on this subject.

 

[autdrew]

Followers of the dawa approach admit that they take a long view but believe they will be successful in getting the west to submit to them. They admit to studying our rules, laws & culture to determine the best course of action, they dont do violence unless they have to. It is more intimidation (they know we hate being called a hater & it used to shut down conversation on the topic because we divert to defend ourselves).So the press for incremental steps toward sharia, sharia financing, courts, special rights, mosque building, enclaves, immigration, birthrates etc. There have been cases of tax payer money being used for specifically islamic charter schools, even got the aclu into it.
They fully realize that the citizens of the US are tolerant & see no problem allowing things here & there. They specifically say they are using it against us.
Muslim Brotherhood memo presented by the FBI at the Holy Land Foundation trial in 07. It was written in 1991 by Mohamed Akram (aka Mohammed Adlouni) meant for brothers only. It states in part
The Ikhwan (brothers) must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions"
Notice the use of “by their hands” they intended to get “useful idiots” to help them along.
They dont advocate violence YET. Though they do reserve it for later. They say they need to prepare an islamic army 1st. So they have been working behind the scenes, peacefully, to subvert. When one group is found out to be a brotherhood front, they change names & reincorporate as them, same people, different names. It goes on & on.

 

[Sufjon]

Followers of the dawa approach admit that they take a long view but believe they will be successful in getting the west to submit to them. They admit to studying our rules, laws & culture to determine the best course of action, they dont do violence unless they have to. It is more intimidation (they know we hate being called a hater & it used to shut down conversation on the topic because we divert to defend ourselves).So the press for incremental steps toward sharia, sharia financing, courts, special rights, mosque building, enclaves, immigration, birthrates etc. There have been cases of tax payer money being used for specifically islamic charter schools, even got the aclu into it.
They fully realize that the citizens of the US are tolerant & see no problem allowing things here & there. They specifically say they are using it against us.
Muslim Brotherhood memo presented by the FBI at the Holy Land Foundation trial in 07. It was written in 1991 by Mohamed Akram (aka Mohammed Adlouni) meant for brothers only. It states in part
The Ikhwan (brothers) must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions"
Notice the use of “by their hands” they intended to get “useful idiots” to help them along.
They dont advocate violence YET. Though they do reserve it for later. They say they need to prepare an islamic army 1st. So they have been working behind the scenes, peacefully, to subvert. When one group is found out to be a brotherhood front, they change names & reincorporate as them, same people, different names. It goes on & on.

Thank You autdrew: Now this sounds like some tangible information. So the way I see it, you are saying that foot baths are being installed in schools and cab drivers have dogs, churches are being built and charter schools are being established. You say they are not advocating violence yet though. Can you tell me some about how the plan comes together, and why they are saving the violence for later? How does the plan roll out? Can you say who the moderate was who said that 80% of the mosques in the US have been taken over by radicals?

Your friend
Sufjon