RETITLED: Why do people misunderstand clear instructions in the Koran that require Muslims to convert the world by any means?

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The Mapping Sharia in America Project, sponsored by the Washington-based Center for Security Policy, has trained former counterintelligence and counterterrorism agents from the FBI, CIA and U.S. military, who are skilled in Arabic and Urdu, to conduct undercover reconnaissance at some 2,300 mosques and Islamic centers and schools across the country.

“So far of 100 mapped, 75 should be on a watchlist,” an official familiar with the project said.
It does appear that I made an error in attributing the number to a moderate muslim group. my apologies. This is one of several sources that used the number & Im trying to trace back to the original sources to see if they are all quoting this small study.
investigativeproject.org/about.php
.Steve Emmerson’s site. It has more information on group connections, testimony given to government officials, Saudi Arabian funding, anything jihad you want documentation for.

Read more at: investigativeproject.org/about.php

citizenwarrior.com/2007/11/wahhabi-invasion-of-america.html
this I included because it spells things out in an orderly way.
The Saudiís also have a special program aimed at converting blacks in prison. In a well-documented June 2002 article in the Washington Times, Cal Thomas noted that the program is funded by Saudi Arabian money through the National Islamic Prison Foundation which underwrites a “prison outreach” program designed to convert large numbers of African-American inmates not only to Wahhabism, but to its political objectives including virulent anti-Americanism.

The Wall Street Journal (February 5, 2003) also confirmed that Wahhabism is making serious inroads into the black population of American prisons. It quoted a New York-based Wahhabi imam, Warith Deen Umar (who until his retirement in 2000 helped run New York’s growing Islamic prison program by recruiting and training dozens of chaplains and ministering to thousands of inmates himself) as saying: “The 9/11 hijackers should be honored as martyrs. The U.S. risks further terrorism attacks because it oppresses Muslims around the world. Without justice, there will be warfare, and it can come to this country too.”

The natural candidates to help press such an attack, in his view, are African-Americans who embraced Islam in prison. Prison dawa, or the spreading of the faith, has become a priority for the Saudi Arabian government. The Islamic Affairs Department of the Saudi Embassy in Washington disseminates hundreds of copies of the Quran each month, as well as religious pamphlets and videos to prison chaplains and Islamic groups who then pass them along to inmates. The Saudi government also pays for prison chaplains, along with many other American Muslims, to travel to Saudi Arabia for worship and study during the hajj, the traditional winter pilgrimage to Mecca that all Muslims are supposed to make at least once in their lives.

He quotes numerous reports in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Times etc that I dont have access to. It requires a paid membership.

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33898
the author outlines the “20 yr plan” that some are pushing. It outlines much of the dawist ideas.

As for the violence, the Muslim Brotherhoods leading intellectual, Sheikh Qaradawi, has quoted the life of mohammad as an example. He told them that when muslims are in a position of weakness, they can use the political system, maintain cordial ties with enemies, subvert them in any way possible, and when the time is right, launch the violent jihad to complete the overthrow.The proft used this tactic in his dealings with the Quraysh tribe. When he was weak, his followers tried to get him to smash their idols to provoke them. He said no, not the right time & signed a treaty with them. (al Hudaybiya agreement) which he broke 2 yrs later & conquered Mecca. This is the example of the profit he uses to justify his telling the Ikhwan to wait. He & his followers arent opposed to violence, they just think it is smarter to wait for the right time. He issued a fatwa exhorting Palestinian women to become suicide bombers because he felt that there, it was the right thing to do. Its situational. BTW he has been banned from entering the US since 1999 for promoting terrorism.

There is a great deal more to the whole thing but I have spent more time on here than I intended to. Please, dont take my word for it. Read their own words & those who study them. Namely Emerson, he has been trying to raise awareness for over 20 yrs and is greatly respected, not a kook. Even if you say that it is just a small percentage that are radical, that still adds up to millions of people. Add some more to that number if you count those who see the dawa idea as a legitimate way of subverting the west.
 
The Investigative Project on Terrorism (IPT) is a non-profit research group founded by Steven Emerson in 1995. It is recognized as the world’s most comprehensive data center on radical Islamic terrorist groups. For more than a decade, the IPT has investigated the operations, funding, activities and front groups of Islamic terrorist and extremist groups in the United States and around the world. It has become a principal source of critical evidence to a wide variety of government offices and law enforcement agencies, as well as the U.S. Congress and numerous public policy forums. Research carried out by the IPT team has formed the basis for thousands of articles and television specials on the subject of radical Islamic involvement in terrorism, and has even led to successful government action against terrorists and financiers based in the United States.

The IPT accepts no funding from outside the United States, or from any governmental agency or political or religious institutions. Tax deductible contributions should be made to its fund-raising arm, the Investigative Project on Terrorism Foundation, a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization.

Founder and executive director Steven Emerson is an internationally recognized expert on terrorism and national security and author. Consulted by the White House, National Security Council, FBI, Justice Department, Congress and intelligence agencies, Mr. Emerson is in great demand as one of the most astute, insightful and knowledgeable experts in the world today on the threat and prospects of militant Islamic terrorism. He has been quoted in more than 500 news articles and has appeared frequently on network television. His 2002 best-selling book, American Jihad: The Terrorists Living Among Us, provides the first context and understanding for how one of the most notorious terrorist groups in the world could have plotted the worst terrorist attack on American soil without detection or scrutiny by American authorities

From The investigativeproject.org site
 
The Investigative Project on Terrorism (IPT) is a non-profit research group founded by Steven Emerson in 1995. It is recognized as the world’s most comprehensive data center on radical Islamic terrorist groups. For more than a decade, the IPT has investigated the operations, funding, activities and front groups of Islamic terrorist and extremist groups in the United States and around the world. It has become a principal source of critical evidence to a wide variety of government offices and law enforcement agencies, as well as the U.S. Congress and numerous public policy forums. Research carried out by the IPT team has formed the basis for thousands of articles and television specials on the subject of radical Islamic involvement in terrorism, and has even led to successful government action against terrorists and financiers based in the United States.

The IPT accepts no funding from outside the United States, or from any governmental agency or political or religious institutions. Tax deductible contributions should be made to its fund-raising arm, the Investigative Project on Terrorism Foundation, a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization.

Founder and executive director Steven Emerson is an internationally recognized expert on terrorism and national security and author. Consulted by the White House, National Security Council, FBI, Justice Department, Congress and intelligence agencies, Mr. Emerson is in great demand as one of the most astute, insightful and knowledgeable experts in the world today on the threat and prospects of militant Islamic terrorism. He has been quoted in more than 500 news articles and has appeared frequently on network television. His 2002 best-selling book, American Jihad: The Terrorists Living Among Us, provides the first context and understanding for how one of the most notorious terrorist groups in the world could have plotted the worst terrorist attack on American soil without detection or scrutiny by American authorities

From The investigativeproject.org site
Thank you autdrew: You have managed to make me curious and I will certainly read some of these sources. You mentioned Steven Emerson, and I’ll start with his work since in my opinion he has excellent credentials. This doesn’t mean I’m convinced that there’s anything to worry about, but I will check this out and you have made me curious. Thank you for your time and all the research!

Your friend
Sufjon
 
How many of the 2 million plus Muslims in the US are American converts? Many of them.So some people have been actively trying to convert the US and succeeding. Young men in the middle east are encouraged by Islamic teachers to move to the US and marry a citizen and thus get citizenship and then convert the wife and then her family, the US is their biggest target for conversion. Once they rule the US, they feel that theycan rule the world.
Many Muslims are horrified by violent attacks in the US not because they abhor violence but because they see such attacks as counter-productive to national conversion by stealth.
lol! thats funny. probably the only way i would get married again, is if i could marry one of these iraqi women. unfortunately that is not going to happen. i get their strategy tho. i have wondered what would happen if we western men, would start marrying middle eastern women, what the result would be? hmmm. lets see, women who respect their husbands more, women who are by and large more faithful to their spouses than western women. and they are very good cooks. dont know if they would convert to their husbands faith or not though. that could be the flaw in my theory. Peace 🙂
 
“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)

How many different interpretations are there in different Qurans of this verse?

Theres a couple no?
It’s a mistranslation. The verse says don’t take Jews or Christians as your *wali *(ولي), which means protector or overlord and is in the context of a war. It has nothing to do with personal friendships.

This talk about Shariah courts in the UK is a red herring. There are many Shariah courts in the US and there have been for decades, nobody is making a fuss about it.
 
It’s a mistranslation. The verse says don’t take Jews or Christians as your wali (ولي), which means protector or overlord and is in the context of a war. It has nothing to do with personal friendships.
So why interpret it as friend, why not say protector or overlord in the English versions, dont talk stupid.

Can you explain all these other, unholy quotes from the Koran. I’m pretty sure you can throw out some kind of defence;

“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Surah 48:29)

“Slay them wherever you find them…Idolatry is worse than carnage…Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)

“The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind ‘Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?’ 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?” (Surah 5:114-)

“Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:27-)

“Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home.” (Surah 9:73)

“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” (Surah 9:121-)

“Seek out your enemies relentlessly.” (Surah 4:103-)

Mohammad’s testimony is not credible;
In the words of St.Thomas Aquinas;

"He (Mohammed) seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh urges us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected; he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity.

He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the Contrary, Mohammed said that he was sent in the power of his arms - which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning (1). Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Mohammed forced others to become his follower’s by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimony of the Old and the New Testaments by making them into a fabrication of his own, as can be seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place faith in his words believe foolishly"
  • Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, Chapter 16, Art. 4.
Footnote:
  1. Sura 21:5, Sura 44:14; Sura 16:103, Sura 37:36
 
I want to know that clear instructions in the Koran that require Muslims to convert the world by any means
thanks
 
I want also to know that rate of conversion in US if you have trusted figures.
thanks
 
I want also to know that rate of conversion in US if you have trusted figures.
thanks
I understand the Quran very clearly.

The conversion rate is difficult to know. How many Muslims reside is the US? 900 thousand and its a slightly inflated number. The last time the statistics were done was 01 I think don’t quote me on that but previous stat. was 700 thousand
 
So why interpret it as friend, why not say protector or overlord in the English versions, dont talk stupid.
Excuse me? I’m explaining the meaning to you because I have some knowledge of Arabic and the Qur’an and I know what it means, and assumed you were interested in understanding. I won’t waste my time with such rude people.
 
I suggest that you consider what Walid Shoebat says in his books/ Youtube videos. He’s an Arabic speaker (classic and modern), ex-Muslim, Arab who tells us that the Koran is an appallingly violent text that encourages lies, broken treaties, mis-treatment of kufr’s who refuse to accept Islam and murder of Islam’s perceived enemies especially Jews.
He also warns that the expected ‘mahdi’ who is going to lead the armies of Islam against Christendom and then create heaven on earth is, in fact the Christian Anti-Christ. (This is not the beliefs of marginal, fundamentalists but of all Muslims).

“We are clear of you and whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you and there has arisen between us and you enmity and hatred for ever, unless you believe in Allah and him alone”. Koran 60.4 To non-Muslims.
 
In the UK wearing a crucifix can cause a problem for a Catholic phlebotomist and sharia courts can settle private law cases. Any religion is good unless it is concerning Christians. Considering that the UK is essentially a Christian country and that the Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church of England that is a rather unsettling development.
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what is happening in the UK on this Forum.

A nurse, not a phlebotomist, was asked not to wear her crucifix on health and safety grounds not because it was a religious symbol. Please let us get the facts correct and leave the press to misrepresent them.

I teach science in a Catholic college. In certain circumstances I would ask students not to wear certain items around their neck. I do this because I do not want my students to be injured. It is not because I am objecting to the fact that the item they are wearing is religious.

Can you provide any source that all UK employees prohibit their staff from wearing any form of Christian symbol? Unlike, say France, the UK is extremely tolerant of any person wearing the symbols of their faith.

I do not see a problem with Islamic courts settling private matters between Muslims. If we had the state prohibit such courts then a precedent would be set in which the state could ban our own Church tribunals.
 
I understand the Quran very clearly.

The conversion rate is difficult to know. How many Muslims reside is the US? 900 thousand and its a slightly inflated number. The last time the statistics were done was 01 I think don’t quote me on that but previous stat. was 700 thousand
please, can you give us that verses in the Koran that order Muslims to convert the world by any means?
 
Patrick Joshua;7146584:
So why interpret it as friend, why not say protector or overlord in the English versions, dont talk stupid.
I won’t waste my time with such rude people.
Patrick & Kadaveri, I hope we all abstain from using improper words that hurt our feelings, we are here to discuss topics not persons…

:blessyou:
 
please, can you give us that verses in the Koran that order Muslims to convert the world by any means?
As you wish… there are examples in the Qur’an that show this. The Qur’an however is not the only place where these are found. More directly would bee looking at the Hadith…
I am not quoting the Qur’an in the following quotes, but a translation. To be precise this is “The Meaning of the Holy Qur’an” by Abdullah Yusuf Ali (amana publications).

The following quote is possibly the most known, but I will bring it up anyways…
Qur’an 9:29
Fight those who believe not
In Allah nor the Last Day,
Nor hold that forbidden
Which hath been forbidden
By Allah and His Messenger,
Nor acknowledge the Religion
Of Truth, from among
The People of the Book,
Until they pay the Jizyah
With willing submission,
And feel themselves subdued.
In other words: Either you convert and submit to Allah or you are being subdued and pay a tax for those who do not convert. Well here we have the means of monetary issues and submission to Muslims. Maybe this is not a very big reason to convert today, but there are other ways…

The following is found earlier in the Surah than the one I just quoted, but it is a little extremer in it’s extend…
Qur’an 9:5
But when the forbidden months
Are past, then fight and slay
The Pagans wherever ye find them,
And seize them, beleaguer them,
And lie in wait for them
In every stratagem (of war);
But if they repent,
And establish regular prayers
And practise regular charity,
Then open the way for them:
For Allah is Oft-Forgiving,
Most Merciful.
Qur’an 9:11
But (even so), if they repent,
Establish regular prayers,
And practice regular charity -
They are your brethren in Faith:
(Thus) do We explain the Signs
In detail, for those who understand.
Doesn’t sound too much like a conversion to you? Did you know that Salah (prayers) and Zakat (charity) are two of the five pillars of Islam? The others are Shahada (the Islamic creed), Sawm (fasting) and Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca). Considering that, becoming brethren in faith does not leave many questions open as to whether or not this means conversion.
So the choice with this verse is to either be slain or to convert. Sounds like a valid argument for me, though I would prefer death over submission to Allah.

Well let’s have a look at what is written down from the narrations of the prophet, meaning the Hadith.
Sahih Muslim (1:33)
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
I mentioned Shahada (the Islamic creed) before and it is mentioned here too (“till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”). Prayer and charity are of course required too. They are to be fought until they become Muslims and only then are their blood and property protected.
I’d still rather die for Christ than live for Allah.
Sahih Muslim (19:4294)
…] When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. …] If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. …]
There are three options:
  1. Submit to Allah and accept Islam (conversion)
  2. Be subdued by the Muslims and pay the tax
  3. Be slain.
    I guess staying a Christian (for example) without being subdued or killed wasn’t an option.
I was thinking about leaving it at that, but I guess I need to fit this one in too… just because it is so clear:
Bukhari (53:392)
While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, “Let us go to the Jews” We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, “If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle.”
One can only keep one’s life and property by the means of conversion? All the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle? Therefore no non-Muslim has any right to it?

As far as I see it Islam has the goal to take over the world and that may happen by the sword if necessary. As I have stated already, I would rather take the sword than acknowledge Allah… It still gives me chills that this giant creeping up on us.
 
As you wish… there are examples in the Qur’an that show this. The Qur’an however is not the only place where these are found. More directly would bee looking at the Hadith…
I am not quoting the Qur’an in the following quotes, but a translation. To be precise this is “The Meaning of the Holy Qur’an” by Abdullah Yusuf Ali (amana publications).

The following quote is possibly the most known, but I will bring it up anyways…

In other words: Either you convert and submit to Allah or you are being subdued and pay a tax for those who do not convert. Well here we have the means of monetary issues and submission to Muslims. Maybe this is not a very big reason to convert today, but there are other ways…

The following is found earlier in the Surah than the one I just quoted, but it is a little extremer in it’s extend…

Doesn’t sound too much like a conversion to you? Did you know that Salah (prayers) and Zakat (charity) are two of the five pillars of Islam? The others are Shahada (the Islamic creed), Sawm (fasting) and Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca). Considering that, becoming brethren in faith does not leave many questions open as to whether or not this means conversion.
So the choice with this verse is to either be slain or to convert. Sounds like a valid argument for me, though I would prefer death over submission to Allah.

Well let’s have a look at what is written down from the narrations of the prophet, meaning the Hadith.

I mentioned Shahada (the Islamic creed) before and it is mentioned here too (“till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”). Prayer and charity are of course required too. They are to be fought until they become Muslims and only then are their blood and property protected.
I’d still rather die for Christ than live for Allah.

There are three options:
  1. Submit to Allah and accept Islam (conversion)
  2. Be subdued by the Muslims and pay the tax
  3. Be slain.
    I guess staying a Christian (for example) without being subdued or killed wasn’t an option.
I was thinking about leaving it at that, but I guess I need to fit this one in too… just because it is so clear:

One can only keep one’s life and property by the means of conversion? All the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle? Therefore no non-Muslim has any right to it?

As far as I see it Islam has the goal to take over the world and that may happen by the sword if necessary. As I have stated already, I would rather take the sword than acknowledge Allah… It still gives me chills that this giant creeping up on us.
I don’t know about how much I should worry about this. The New Testament shows Jesus saying love thy neighbor as you love yourself. I am not worried about ever seeing that behavior on a large scale, so why would we suppose that we will see any of these things you have quoted from the Qur’an on a large scale? Yes, I think there are a few Christians who love their neighbors as much as they love themselves, and a few Muslims who think they need to take Islam to the world, but not the average Christian or Muslim I have met.

TO THE MUSLIMS ON THIS BOARD:

Here’s what I would like to hear. I would like to hear from some of the Muslims who post on this board about these passages from the Qur’an. I have never read the Qur’an, and I really have no interest in it, but I keep hearing these passages from people who are afraid of Islam. What do Muslims think about these? I honestly don’t think that the average Muslim has world conquest on their minds, but I keep running into non-Muslims who quote these a lot. What would you say to these people about these passages? There are wars and encouragement to fight in my Bible, but these clearly known by those in my faith to be about the war within yourself, and no one is much interested in us anyway, so we don’t get asked. What do you say about these things in your scriptures? I would like to be able to answer people when they tell me these things about you.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
To Muslims or any “Neutral” scholar who “deeply” studied Islam
How do Muslems answer that claims ?
 
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