Return of 'I believe'

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alessandro

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I recently posted on miserere.org a CWNews story from November 2, 2007, about a new translation of the Liturgy which promises many improvements to the poor edition of the Novus Ordo presently in use in the United States:

2 November 2007 (CWNews.com) — The International Commission on English in the Liturgy (ICEL) has completed a draft of its English translation of the Roman Missal. The ICEL draft, which was unveiled on November 1, will now be submitted to the bishops’ conferences of the English-speaking world. Bishop Arthur Roche of Leeds, England, explained that ICEL will solicit comments on the draft, make appropriate changes, and hopes to complete the English translation by the end of 2008.
The ICEL draft is a translation of the Latin that appears in the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal. That official Latin version was released in 2002.
The process of translating the Roman Missal into English has been complicated by lively debates about the principles of liturgical language– a debate that prompted the Vatican to set up a new committee to join in the consultations. The Vox Clara committee, chaired by Cardinal George Pell of Sydney Australia. In March 2004, the Vox Clara committee welcomed a new translation, which provided a more accurate rendering of the Latin original.
Among the most notable changes proposed in the new translation are:
  • The Creed begins with “I believe,” rather than “We believe” — in a simple and accurate translation of the Latin Credo.
  • When the priest says to the congregation, “The Lord be with you,” the response is now: “And with your spirit” — again, a faithful translation of the Latin “Et cum spiritu tuo.”
  • The use of “inclusive language” is generally avoided, so that masculine pronouns are more broadly used — especially in cases where the pronoun might refer to Jesus or to God.
    The latest draft is being submitted by ICEL for comments by the Vatican and by the 11 episcopal conferences represented in ICEL, which includes the bishops of Australia, Canada, England and Wales, India, Ireland, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Scotland, South Africa, and the US.
 
Why didn’t you have one that we could check if we all say “I”?
Just because some don’t doesn’t mean that we all don’t.
 
How come you don’t have an answer that reads: “I say “we” because that is the current, approved English translation, even though I am perfectly aware that it differs from the Latin (credo), and I look forward to the new translation.”

Your two polls (which I have seen, maybe you have posted more) suggest that you are a very unhappy person. I’ll try to keep you in my prayers tomorrow at mass.
 
I say “We” because that is still the currently approved translation. Once the new translation with “I” is approved, that is what I will say. I follow what is approved at the present time. When it is changed, I will follow the changes.
 
pyropam said:
Why didn’t you have one that we could check if we all say “I”?
Just because some don’t doesn’t mean that we all don’t.
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I agreee. Everyone that I attend mass with says “I”. We can’t say “We” because I don’t know if the guy standing next to me “believes”. I can’t speak for him, only myself and “We” would include the guy next to me.
 
Vox_Borealis said:
Your two polls (which I have seen, maybe you have posted more) suggest that you are a very unhappy person. I’ll try to keep you in my prayers tomorrow at mass.
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That goes double for me. May I suggest that you focus more on your love for God and His for you than the possible errors of others. Also, if you think there are so many abuses occurring in your parish, you might make an appointment with your pastor and discuss your concerns with him.
 
The Creed, as promulgated by the Councils, read “Credimus/Pistevomai: We believe.”

The practically unanimous liturgical use, however (until recently) is to recite it in the singular, “I believe.”

Only the Armenians (who recite the Anathemas as well) and Ethiopians recite it in the plural form–again until lately.

Curiously, the Office of Orthodoxy on the First Sunday of Lent directs the Creed to be said in the plural, though I’ve never been anywhere where this was done. It would STILL be recited in the singular.
 
PS–The Byzantine Churches (Orthodox and Catholic) still use the singular.
 
I saw “We believe”. I know enough Latin to know it’s not accurate, but the person standing next to me probably doesn’t know that, and it is not the time to purposely try and stick out. Be mindful of the reputation you give. There are some things that are a big enough deal to stick out and go against the norm for. The reverence you show and the manner you receive communion, for example- always show reverence, and receive with reverence- even if nobody around you does. When we say the creed we are saying, in community, what each of us as individuals believe. It isn’t accurate, but not entirely inappropriate either, to say “We believe.” When the new Mass translation comes out, it will probably say “I believe”, but as slow as things seem to be moving as far as this is concerned, I doubt that will be in my lifetime.
 
Any news on when the new translation is going to come into effect?

We’re all looking forward to it.

I also can’t wait to see a full list of the errors corrected. Some latin scholars have suggested there are as many as 300 errors in the current translation, and even if we could bring that number down to 100 or 50, I’d be content with the progress made for at least another decade.

Also, is there a place on the net where I can find the 2002 Latin text?
 
If the Church officially mandates that we say “I believe” instead of “We believe” that’s okay with me, but I really don’t have a problem with the present form of the Nicene Creed. I view the Apostle’s Creed as the baptismal creed where the communicant declares his faith on a personal level. Then when we are together at Mass, I feel that we are praying as community and that “We” is appropriate.:bowdown2:
 
The changes sound good–and have been needed for a LONG time. (personaly, we should have just borrowed with a few necessary adaptations the oriignal Book of Common Prayer from the Anglicans)

By all means, lets dump “limp wristed liturgies written by limp wristed liturgists” (the last via Peter Kreeft’s The Snakebite Letters
 
You didn’t see fit to provide this option, but I vote:

“We” is correct when the congregation are professing their faith as a community.
 
LeahInancsi said:
I agreee. Everyone that I attend mass with says “I”. We can’t say “We” because I don’t know if the guy standing next to me “believes”. I can’t speak for him, only myself and “We” would include the guy next to me.
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If its understood that the “we” refers to the Catholic Church then “we” is definitely proper even though, obviously not every individual in the “we” doesn’t believe.

When “I”(actually the latin credo) was used, only the priest said it, so he could speak for himself on the matter. Asking the whole people to say “I” is asking at least some of them to say something which may be false, yet it would be true if “we” was used.
 
didymus said:
You didn’t see fit to provide this option, but I vote:

“We” is correct when the congregation are professing their faith as a community.
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Not everyone in the congregation believes though…I know people who go to Mass that are agnositcs…by me saying “we” believe means I am lying when I say it.
 
THurifer2 said:
Not everyone in the congregation believes though…I know people who go to Mass that are agnositcs…by me saying “we” believe means I am lying when I say it.
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This misses the point. “We believe” means “We as Catholics believe.” It is an expression of corporate belief (ie, the teachings of the Church), not an expression of the particular views and beliefs of individual laity. Now that said, I personally prefer the Creed to emphasize individual belief. Hence, I look forward to the restoration of the more lieral translation of Credo.

In any case, I’m not sure you would be technically lying, given the circumstances you describe.
 
lak611 said:
I say “We” because that is still the currently approved translation. Once the new translation with “I” is approved, that is what I will say. I follow what is approved at the present time. When it is changed, I will follow the changes.
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Ditto. I think it would be wrong to say “I believe” when the version of the Mass that the Church currentl provides us uses “We believe”. I prefer obedience to the Church.
 
Hopefully,

When the priest says to the congregation, “The Lord be with you,” the response is now: “And with your spirit” — again, a faithful translation of the Latin “Et cum spiritu tuo.”

This will be rejected and remain, “and also with you.”

And with your spirit sounds silly. For one, the priest is present body and soul. We respond to the words “The Lord Be With you,” to him, not just to his spirit.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Hopefully,

When the priest says to the congregation, “The Lord be with you,” the response is now: “And with your spirit” — again, a faithful translation of the Latin “Et cum spiritu tuo.”

This will be rejected and remain, “and also with you.”

And with your spirit sounds silly. For one, the priest is present body and soul. We respond to the words “The Lord Be With you,” to him, not just to his spirit.

Jim
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The words will (and should) change to accurately reflect the Latin. It will change to “And with your spirit”.

The creed will also change to “I” from “We”. I didn’t respond in the poll because there is no good choice for me. I say, “We” because that is the official response for the Mass in English. It should be “I” but until, it is officially changed we are bound to say “We”.

When the new translation arrives we will also be saying: “Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and I shall be healed.”
 
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