Return to Latin Mass vs. English

[IrishRush]

I’ve been wondering why there is so much enthusiasm for a return to the Latin mass and the pre Vatican II ways. I was born in 1960, so by the time I was attending church and paying attention to what was going on, everything was in English. I assume this was post Vatican II. I’ve seen pictures of the Mass before Vatican II and I have to say that I prefer the priest facing the congregation, rather than standing with his back to it and I also prefer English. It seems to me that using a language understood by all of the congregation would be more inclusive. I know if I couldn’t understand what was being said, or see what my priest is doing, not only would I be more easily distracted but I would feel like I was not part of the celebration.
I remember the first year our parish decided to sing the Agnus Dei in Latin during Advent. There was no notice in the bulletin, just one Sunday they started doing it. I had no idea what it was, never having heard it before - I should mention here that I was away from my faith for a very long time until about 7 years ago - and emailed my older brother, who happens to be a deacon in his church, and described what and when this happened. He told me it sounded like the Agnus Dei and I should try finding a video of it online so I could be sure. So I did that and that’s what it was. But I remember feeling completely disenfranchised and not a part of the mass that Sunday. When I went home that day I felt like I still needed to go to mass, if you understand what I mean.
Sorry for the long ramble, but I think it kind of feels to me llike the people pushing for the Latin Mass to return are trying to set up almost an elite or exclusive club within the church. Just my personal feeling on it and not an attack on anyone.

 

[archangel04]

I’ve been wondering why there is so much enthusiasm for a return to the Latin mass and the pre Vatican II ways. I was born in 1960, so by the time I was attending church and paying attention to what was going on, everything was in English. I assume this was post Vatican II. I’ve seen pictures of the Mass before Vatican II and I have to say that I prefer the priest facing the congregation, rather than standing with his back to it and I also prefer English. It seems to me that using a language understood by all of the congregation would be more inclusive. I know if I couldn’t understand what was being said, or see what my priest is doing, not only would I be more easily distracted but I would feel like I was not part of the celebration.
I remember the first year our parish decided to sing the Agnus Dei in Latin during Advent. There was no notice in the bulletin, just one Sunday they started doing it. I had no idea what it was, never having heard it before - I should mention here that I was away from my faith for a very long time until about 7 years ago - and emailed my older brother, who happens to be a deacon in his church, and described what and when this happened. He told me it sounded like the Agnus Dei and I should try finding a video of it online so I could be sure. So I did that and that’s what it was. But I remember feeling completely disenfranchised and not a part of the mass that Sunday. When I went home that day I felt like I still needed to go to mass, if you understand what I mean.
Sorry for the long ramble, but I think it kind of feels to me llike the people pushing for the Latin Mass to return are trying to set up almost an elite or exclusive club within the church. Just my personal feeling on it and not an attack on anyone.

Here we go.
Iam sure there will be many who will give you their opinions. One thing I can tell you is that the ad orientum (facing towards east or in your case "back towards the people) is a very ancient practice. The priest faces God hence we together as a community face the same direction. Also, the priest takes our prayers and petitions to God. I prefer this position also because it eliminates the priest having to put up a “show” or entertainer type persona. You mention you have to see everything the priest does, do you know that your attentions should be towards the altar? Other than during the readings and homily? Our focus should be on Jesus not on what the priest does or does not do. I can’t speak for others, but it’s not my experience with people who prefer Latin mass whether it be OF or EF are trying to set up some elite group. What would you say if a group of tourist go to non-English speaking country, should the parish they visit to fulfill their Sunday obligation accommodate to them so they may feel inclusive with the mass? Your ramble I wonder if it’s just to get a reaction out of members, or are you truly asking sincere questions. Sorry if I sound uncharitable, but we get many new members on here who tend to ask or post rambles to get reactions, or just don’t like to use the search functioned on topics that have been beaten to death.

 

[Te_Deum]

I’ve seen pictures of the Mass before Vatican II and I have to say that I prefer the priest facing the congregation, rather than standing with his back to it and I also prefer English.

So you would rather the priest turn his back to God to face you?

 

[Clay_Pot]

I haven’t yet experienced Latin at Mass…but seeing the old rite in a movie this year contributed to my renewed attraction to the Church of my birth. Having walked for over 20 years now in the Evangelical Protestantism, I came to see this year how the MANY divisions within Christianity are not the will of Christ (John 17:21), and sabotage our witness to the unbelieving world. Against that realization, I watched the movie “Joyeaux Noel” – a 2005 film about the World War I Christmas truce of December 1914, depicted through the eyes of French, British and German soldiers. The scene in which a Mass is celebrated outdoors, the soldiers gathering together outside their trenches, overwhelmed me with its beauty: the soldiers of all three countries participated in unison, because Mass the world over was celebrated always in Latin. So I am eager to practice and learn about the return to Latin for key portions of the Mass. I see it as a sign of unity with believers of ages past, and a means of uniting us now as a worldwide body of believers.

 

[Te_Deum]

Latin must have pre-eminence in our liturgy because we belong to the Latin Church. Latin is our heritage. All of our greatest works of song are in Latin, our great thinkers wrote in Latin. In fact to truly dig into the Catholic Faith Latin is absolutely necessary (the majority of the works of our saints etc., have not been translated and you can not always trust a translation either).

You say that Latin is a bar to inclusiveness? I think having the exact same Mass from Portland to Dublin to Warsaw to Zagreb to Buenos Aires is pretty darn inclusive. You have missals for the propers (Gospel etc.) and the Ordinary is not hard to pick up in the least. It does not take monumental genius to understand that “et introibo ad altare Dei ad Deum qui laetificat iuventutem meam” means “And I will go in to the altar of God: to God who giveth joy to my youth.”

 

[ProVobis]

I also prefer English.

Well I prefer Polish, but since we are in the Latin Rite, the Vatican gave us only the Latin Mass in two forms, and I will study the necessary Latin to understand or follow along in the Missal.

 

[Kielbasi]

During Latin Mass, the faithful were called to be silent and pray during the entire liturgy. Stand, sit, kneel, but remain silent and pray.

Changing to the venacular and the new Mass required the faithful to actually speak up and read the responses from the missal Quite a culture shock, quite a change in the experience.

People don’t like change too much, and Catholics are no exception, and they particularly have a hard time adopting to change in the area of religion. And this was a major change indeed.

 

[Te_Deum]

During Latin Mass, the faithful were called to be silent and pray during the entire liturgy. Stand, sit, kneel, but remain silent and pray.

Changing to the venacular and the new Mass required the faithful to actually speak up and read the responses from the missal Quite a culture shock, quite a change in the experience.

People don’t like change too much, and Catholics are no exception, and they particularly have a hard time adopting to change in the area of religion. And this was a major change indeed.

Dialogue Masses were first introduced during the Latin Mass…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Dialogue Masses were first introduced during the Latin Mass…

I’m 4 years older than the OP and I remember in 1967 when the first vernacular English translation came out. (It’s actually remarkably similar to the one that we will enjoy this coming November because it was more faithful to the literal Latin).

So picture this. People who have for X number of years only prayed Latin, coming on a given Sunday to find the whole Mass (not just one prayer) completely changed into a different language.

We had to learn the prayers in English. And JUST when we were getting comfortable with them, BAM! three years later in 1970 came the CURRENT Mass. Guess what?

**we had to RELEARN all those English prayers. All over again. **

Amazingly even people like my then 80-year-old German born grandmother seemed able to do so without that much trouble. Sure, every now and then somebody would inadvertently start to say ‘through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault’ in the Confiteor instead of simply ‘through my fault’ but people understood and nobody laughed or made fun.

I fully expect that for the next couple of years (since instead of being 11 or 14 I’m now 54) I will make the occasional stumble as I ‘learn’ the proposed translation. And that’s fine.

Maybe I’ll be perforce encouraged to slow down a bit from the tendency to go on autopilot and actually think about what I’m saying. Pay a little more attention. Focus a little more. Those are good things. . .

 

[archangel04]

During Latin Mass, the faithful were called to be silent and pray during the entire liturgy. Stand, sit, kneel, but remain silent and pray.

Changing to the venacular and the new Mass required the faithful to actually speak up and read the responses from the missal Quite a culture shock, quite a change in the experience.

People don’t like change too much, and Catholics are no exception, and they particularly have a hard time adopting to change in the area of religion. And this was a major change indeed.

Eh I think you are a little confused. Many people actually accepted the vernacular and it’s all they wanted. The Mass in both forms are originally in Latin only the OF is allowed to be said in the vernacular. What was a shock was the change of the form of the mass not really the language. This did cause some to leave the Church, others as an oppotunity to manipulate and control the liturgy. My opinion the reason why so many who never experience are drawn to the Latin is because it was hidden from us. It’s like a “rumor” about a tressure, then you are given a map so you follow it because of curiousity. Hence the same thing happen, all of a sudden people are watching the news in 2007 and hear about this Latin mass that is going to return so people got curious especially the younger generations. Only the future will reveal to what effect the “return” of the Latin will have on the Church in the West.

 

[Skeptic92]

Dialogue Masses were first introduced during the Latin Mass…

Both before the Tridentine Mass (as a Franciscan Brother here recently let me know!), and on the European Continent Post-Reformation (as an innovation, which caught on, on mainland Europe, not so much outside of it though). Dialogue Masses were quite common, infact most Low Masses became Dialogue Masses.

I Support Latin in the Mass (whether that be OF or EF), simply because I like being able to hear the same Mass from Washington, to Cardiff, from Beijing to London, from Paris to Alexandria etc etc etc.

 

[Kielbasi]

Eh I think you are a little confused. Many people actually accepted the vernacular and it’s all they wanted.

Of course you are on target correct.

Many people did like and do like the English mass.

But a sizable number didn’t and had a hard time adjusting to the new protocols.

And those are the ones who are enthusiastic about a return to Latin.

Change is hard, and some are more inclined to accept it than others.

 

[archangel04]

Of course you are on target correct.

Many people did like and do like the English mass.

But a sizable number didn’t and had a hard time adjusting to the new protocols.

And those are the ones who are enthusiastic about a return to Latin.

Change is hard, and some are more inclined to accept it than others.

Ok that is much more clear and I agree to that.

 

[BigDave31]

Can I state my opinion? As a recent convert to the catholic church I probably would not have converted if the mass was not in english. You see I became a convert after a life time of being an evangelical christian.I converted 5 years ago at the age of 74. I am sure that as much as I became convinced of the catholic faith being the true faith that having to listen to mass in latin would have discouraged me. Maybe this does not matter to much for after all who needs such old men to convert??? I no doubt will be dead some time soon. But in the meanwhile this year I am sponsering a 50 year old man in RCIA. I also spend time weekly to keep our Adoration Chapel open 24/7. So youi see us older guys can do some good for the church.

 

[pat_helensburgh]

I’m 4 years older than the OP and I remember in 1967 when the first vernacular English translation came out. (It’s actually remarkably similar to the one that we will enjoy this coming November because it was more faithful to the literal Latin).

So picture this. People who have for X number of years only prayed Latin, coming on a given Sunday to find the whole Mass (not just one prayer) completely changed into a different language.

We had to learn the prayers in English. And JUST when we were getting comfortable with them, BAM! three years later in 1970 came the CURRENT Mass. Guess what?

**we had to RELEARN all those English prayers. All over again. **

Amazingly even people like my then 80-year-old German born grandmother seemed able to do so without that much trouble. Sure, every now and then somebody would inadvertently start to say ‘through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault’ in the Confiteor instead of simply ‘through my fault’ but people understood and nobody laughed or made fun.

I fully expect that for the next couple of years (since instead of being 11 or 14 I’m now 54) I will make the occasional stumble as I ‘learn’ the proposed translation. And that’s fine.

Maybe I’ll be perforce encouraged to slow down a bit from the tendency to go on autopilot and actually think about what I’m saying. Pay a little more attention. Focus a little more. Those are good things. . .

i agree, reciting prayers out of habit is in my humble view not prayer at all, thinking about the words, the meaning, who you are actually praying to, that makes a prayer.

those on the thread who seem to be quite annoyed that someone dare bring up a topic that has been gone over & over,
don’t join the discussion…anyway Latin surpassed Greek which surpassed Aramaic as the favoured language of the church, so if you want a ‘‘old boys club’’ go learn to play golf & join a country club.
Jesus was Jewish not from Rome…

 

[ProVobis]

The Church gained many, many, many converts prior to Vatican II. And that was when the Mass was in Latin, priests said Mass ad orientem, communion fast was at least 3 hours, no meat was allowed on Friday, certain books were forbidden to be read, catechism was memorized, etc. Catholics all had a Catholic identity and were proud of it.

 

[Kielbasi]

Can I state my opinion? As a recent convert to the catholic church I probably would not have converted if the mass was not in english.

No one can speak for any particular individual, of course and “probably” leaves some wiggle room here.

But, plenty of Americans converted to Catholicism during the era of the Latin Mass. I’d like to see the stats to actually see whether or not the English mass was a point of positivity for conversions, a negative or a no change.

 

[Padraig1972]

I am a convert too and prefer the Latin to both the english and mass in my native tongue.
Why? Because our church is Latin. Yes it is! And because we should stick to the roots.

The Latin Mass has the class, dignity and the holyness that makes our church so unique and it does not have to happen something during the mass all the time either. Step by step rather than rush-ahead-and-be-done-in-a-minute style.

By all means, NO masses are OK. But i do prefer the Latin mass every time to it and will study enough Latin to understand it fully in time.

 

[tee_eff_em]

It seems to me that using a language understood by all of the congregation would be more inclusive. I know if I couldn’t understand what was being said, or see what my priest is doing, not only would I be more easily distracted but I would feel like I was not part of the celebration.

How inclusive is it that my local church regularly celebrates Spanish and Vietnamese language Masses (and perhaps others I am unaware), as well as frequent Masses in Italian, Polish and other languages?

tee

 

[pat_helensburgh]

that is true