Return to Latin Mass vs. English

[archangel04]

i agree, reciting prayers out of habit is in my humble view not prayer at all, thinking about the words, the meaning, who you are actually praying to, that makes a prayer.

those on the thread who seem to be quite annoyed that someone dare bring up a topic that **has been gone over & over,
don’t join the discussion…**anyway Latin surpassed Greek which surpassed Aramaic as the favoured language of the church, so if you want a ‘‘old boys club’’ go learn to play golf & join a country club.
Jesus was Jewish not from Rome…

I assume that is directed towards me? Since no one else mentioned about the topic being beaten to death. I mentioned it because I questions the OP’s intentions. Does he want a letigimate discussion? If he does why not ask questions instead of ranting his opinions? No need to be uncharitable.

“so if you want a ‘‘old boys club’’ go learn to play golf & join a country club”.

I am not sure what that means but it seems your comment is uncharitable. The official language of the Church is LATIN! The 2nd Vatican council said that we should retain Latin in our litugy with some vernacular, why do you get upset when people simply present the truth?
What does Jesus being Jewish and not Roman have to do with this discussion?

 

[Kielbasi]

It seems to me that using a language understood by all of the congregation would be more inclusive. I know if I couldn’t understand what was being said, or see what my priest is doing, not only would I be more easily distracted but I would feel like I was not part of the celebration.

I think you don’t appreciate how much of communication is non-verbal.

Even though most Catholics of the Latin Mass era didn’t understand Latin- especially the fast talking Latin used at mass- much of it in a very low tone- they were still very aware of what was going down by the actions of the priest and altar servers and by the ringing of the bells…

Maybe even more so than in the present era when every word can be made out and understood.

 

[Stitchwort]

IrishRush:

I prefer the priest facing the congregation, rather than standing with his back to it and I also prefer English. It seems to me that using a language understood by all of the congregation would be more inclusive.

When I attend Mass, I normally sit well towards the front. This means that my back is to most of the congregation–does this bother you? If you sit in the last row, just about everyone will have their backs to you. Is it really all that bad?

The one-person-facing-a-group position is common in our culture when we are being entertained, and when we are attending a lecture. And, regardless of the language used at a given Mass, the priest always turned to face the congregation during the readings and the homily (and at other points when he was to address the people). But the Mass is not entertainment, and when he turns back to the altar, he is addressing God. The image is that we are all one, and he is leading us in prayer towards God.

After all, if you were on a bus, heading to an important destination, would you want the driver to be turned around chatting with the passengers? Of course not! You would want him looking ahead at the road and focused on bringing us all to our destination. And what destination is more important than Heaven?

How do you know that English is understood by all the congregation? Here in Canada we have large areas where French is spoken; if you were to visit Quebec, for example, you might have to attend Mass in French. In the US, many parishes have a large Spanish community, or Vietnamese, and some masses will be in those languages.

When the Mass was in Latin, everyone attended the same Mass. You might have your prayerbook with the Latin on one side and English on the other, and your neighbour might be using a missal with Latin on one side and Spanish on the other. You might not be able to have much of a conversation with that neighbour, but you could recognize each other as members of the same faith community and smile at each other. Now most people worship in their own ethnic enclave and we are much more divided. How is that inclusive?

Now we have English Masses, and French Masses, and Spanish Masses, and Polish Masses, and Vietnamese Masses, and many, many more. Why should we not also have a Latin Mass for those who prefer it?

I have no desire whatever to take the Novus Ordo Mass away from those who prefer it. But the Extraordinary Form has a somewhat different spirituality, which some of us find more condusive to growing in holiness. Why should we be denied it?

 

[archangel04]

I think you don’t appreciate how much of communication is non-verbal.

Even though most Catholics of the Latin Mass era didn’t understand Latin- especially the fast talking Latin used at mass- much of it in a very low tone- they were still very aware of what was going down by the actions of the priest and altar servers and by the ringing of the bells…

Maybe even more so than in the present era when every word can be made out and understood.

This is very true. The catechesis back then was much better than today. Most Catholics had their children in Catholic schools. Today you be lucky enough to have a kid call the Eucharist the body of Christ instead they might say something like “eating the bread” which I constantly hear at my territorial parish. Just because one recites a prayer in their non-native tongue does not mean they don’t understand the meaning of the prayer. As I’ve attended more the Latin mass and actually sat down and read my missal I realize how deep the prayers really are, if anything when I say prayer in English I feel like some robot lol.

 

[archangel04]

IrishRush:

I have no desire whatever to take the Novus Ordo Mass away from those who prefer it. But the Extraordinary Form has a somewhat different spirituality, which some of us find more condusive to growing in holiness. Why should we be denied it?

Awsome!

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Can I state my opinion? As a recent convert to the catholic church I probably would not have converted if the mass was not in english. You see I became a convert after a life time of being an evangelical christian.I converted 5 years ago at the age of 74. I am sure that as much as I became convinced of the catholic faith being the true faith that having to listen to mass in latin would have discouraged me. Maybe this does not matter to much for after all who needs such old men to convert??? I no doubt will be dead some time soon. But in the meanwhile this year I am sponsering a 50 year old man in RCIA. I also spend time weekly to keep our Adoration Chapel open 24/7. So youi see us older guys can do some good for the church.

Good to have you back home Dave Dont worry in another 5 years I bet we will have you saying Deo Gratias!

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

No one can speak for any particular individual, of course and “probably” leaves some wiggle room here.

But, plenty of Americans converted to Catholicism during the era of the Latin Mass. I’d like to see the stats to actually see whether or not the English mass was a point of positivity for conversions, a negative or a no change.

I think the stats you should run along with those are what type of converts did each form bring into the Church and if they stayed with the Church.

 

[Dirichlet]

I have nothing against those who prefer the Ordinary Form Mass in the vernacular language, as long as it is celebrated with due reverence.

But me… I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass

 

[At_Trent]

But in the meanwhile this year I am sponsering a 50 year old man in RCIA. I also spend time weekly to keep our Adoration Chapel open 24/7. So youi see us older guys can do some good for the church.

Those two efforts will earn you a place in Heaven friend

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe even more so than in the present era when every word can be made out and understood.

And I’ll bet that there are no more than 5 people who remember what the readings were all about as they leave church. So much for the understanding.

 

[agnes_therese]

A couple of things come to mind:

1. I don’t think you can attribute love for the Latin Mass to people resisting change. I’m sure there are some who prefer it for that reason, but it’s not a valid generalization.
2. As a post-Vatican-II convert, I LOVE it when we (NO parish) sing the Agnus Dei in Latin. It is so beautiful.
3. Again speaking as a post-Vatican-II convert, I’m sure I WOULD still have converted if the Mass had still been in Latin. The one true church is the one true church; I’d have learned Chinese, if that had been what was required.

 

[Te_Deum]

1. Again speaking as a post-Vatican-II convert, I’m sure I WOULD still have converted if the Mass had still been in Latin. The one true church is the one true church; I’d have learned Chinese, if that had been what was required.

This is a very good point. I heartily dislike when others insinuate that the Latin Mass in general is a bar to conversion. It’s like putting limits on God’s grace. If God wants you in the Church, which he does, and you are willing to respond to that, come hell or high water, English or Latin, you’re coming home to Rome.

 

[ProVobis]

Now we have English Masses, and French Masses, and Spanish Masses, and Polish Masses, and Vietnamese Masses, and many, many more.

And it could be that each parish has to (or had to) pay for those translations, whether they’re accurate or not, whereas the Latin Mass (of either form) belongs to the Church.

 

[Cat]

And I’ll bet that there are no more than 5 people who remember what the readings were all about as they leave church. So much for the understanding.

We really can’t make this kind of assumption about anyone. Only God can read hearts.

I see plenty of people carrying various worship aids into Mass with them. I know a lot of people who use the Magnificat or The Daily Word (I think that’s the name of it). Both of these little worship aids contain the Mass readings and a simple meditation about the readings. I also see quite a few people who carry a Missal into the Mass, and follow the readings in their own missal rather than the pew missallette. Many of these Missallettes are well-thumbed and obviously have been used faithfully over years.

 

[laszlo]

This is what the XXI Ecumenical Council defined related to the Latin in the Mass:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

54 … Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

The first requirement is completed by the fact that the Latin is the Official language of the Mass for the Western churches, and that the priest freely choose between the vernacular and the Latin. We had to suppose that the choice of the vernacular by over 99 percents of the priests is practical and good choice.

The second requirement applies either the new form and the TLM. It is highly desiderable that people sing together the Ordinary of the Mass, and because there is no good, approved English translation, it should be learned in Latin from the Liber Usualis. My experience is that people like it, and learn it easily. It only belongs to the musical director to introduce it.

The Latin chant with the vernacular Mass amkes a perfect balance between the understanding that the Mass is set aside for God, and together that with the desire for the esoteric, and in other hand to the desire for the full understanding, with mind and heart.

 

[Cat]

No one can speak for any particular individual, of course and “probably” leaves some wiggle room here.

But, plenty of Americans converted to Catholicism during the era of the Latin Mass. I’d like to see the stats to actually see whether or not the English mass was a point of positivity for conversions, a negative or a no change.

It was a different time. Even people who didn’t finish school valued education, and specifically a classical education that included Greek and Latin as part of school curricula. People admired ancient history and culture, and sought to keep them as part of their everyday life.

Nowadays, there is a lack of respect and even derision for education, and especially for classical education and ancient history and culture. Subjects like history and ancient studies are done with very little intellectual integrity. Much of the time, the history seems to be twisted so that it will fit in with current politically-correct thinking. And very few public schools teach history, literature, politics, and philosophy and include the influence of religion, specifically Christianity, on these subjects. Religion is left out of everything, and so the entire curricula is warped and incomplete. And since the children and teenagers don’t know what they are missing out on, they don’t know to ask for it.

Most schools emphasize New Age concepts like “Be the best you can be” and “You can be anything you want to be.” They don’t necessarily teach people how to accomplish these esoteric goals, but they do try to convince children and teenagers that “everyone is special.”

The point is, it was a different time and people had a different mindset. I think that people were more respectful of things that they didn’t understand. Nowadays, people want knowledge and comprehension. We even seek to factualize and explain our various mysticisms. We don’t just accept things anymore.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Can I state my opinion? As a recent convert to the catholic church I probably would not have converted if the mass was not in english. You see I became a convert after a life time of being an evangelical christian.I converted 5 years ago at the age of 74. I am sure that as much as I became convinced of the catholic faith being the true faith that having to listen to mass in latin would have discouraged me. Maybe this does not matter to much for after all who needs such old men to convert??? I no doubt will be dead some time soon. But in the meanwhile this year I am sponsering a 50 year old man in RCIA. I also spend time weekly to keep our Adoration Chapel open 24/7. So youi see us older guys can do some good for the church.

Yes you are correct that our older members are a true blessing. I am so happy to hear that you came into the church and give so much to your parish. What is sad is that you would have let the offical language of the church keep you from the church. In almost every case the Readings in the old form were in the common language and the Homily always was. And I know that for me the more I hear the paryers in latin the more I come to know the latin. I once worked with a german lady that arrived in this counrty and did not speack a word of english. she learned it from TV. I speack no latin but am learning it from the mass. Also you maybe surprised at how much you would reckonize.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

…anyway Latin surpassed Greek which surpassed Aramaic as the favoured language of the church, so if you want a ‘‘old boys club’’ go learn to play golf & join a country club.
Jesus was Jewish not from Rome…

Not quite true. Yes most all was in either Hebrew or Aramaic to begin as the first christians were Jewish and IN the Holy Lands and that is what the people spoke and still is the lanaguage used. Then as is spread to the Gentiles those in the Greek speaking lands celebrated in Greek and still do. Then to the Latin speaking world in latin ( That is Western europe). the Languages of French, Spanish, and Italian all come out of the Latin. That is why in the West latin was the language used everyone spoke it. After the empire fell and the national language were developing. the Church is what held the people together and latin remained the language of the western church. Its not a “Old boys Club” its our History and heratiage as Latin Rite Catholics.

Also keep in mind that Amen is aramaic, Hosanna is Aramaic, Alleluia is latin. and these words are used in every mass should they be removed and changed to english?

 

[ClamDigger]

I’ve been wondering why there is so much enthusiasm for a return to the Latin mass and the pre Vatican II ways. I was born in 1960, so by the time I was attending church and paying attention to what was going on, everything was in English. I assume this was post Vatican II. I’ve seen pictures of the Mass before Vatican II and I have to say that I prefer the priest facing the congregation, rather than standing with his back to it and I also prefer English. It seems to me that using a language understood by all of the congregation would be more inclusive. I know if I couldn’t understand what was being said, or see what my priest is doing, not only would I be more easily distracted but I would feel like I was not part of the celebration.
I remember the first year our parish decided to sing the Agnus Dei in Latin during Advent. There was no notice in the bulletin, just one Sunday they started doing it. I had no idea what it was, never having heard it before - I should mention here that I was away from my faith for a very long time until about 7 years ago - and emailed my older brother, who happens to be a deacon in his church, and described what and when this happened. He told me it sounded like the Agnus Dei and I should try finding a video of it online so I could be sure. So I did that and that’s what it was. But I remember feeling completely disenfranchised and not a part of the mass that Sunday. When I went home that day I felt like I still needed to go to mass, if you understand what I mean.
Sorry for the long ramble, but I think it kind of feels to me llike the people pushing for the Latin Mass to return are trying to set up almost an elite or exclusive club within the church. Just my personal feeling on it and not an attack on anyone.

I just started attending the Latin Mass about a month ago, and I’ve already changed parishes because I enjoy it so much. The first time I heard the Agnus Dei sung in Latin at the Mass, I felt as if there was a real sense of reverence and mystery to the order of the Mass, which I thought was beautiful.
Also, as far as facing toward the congregation vs. toward the Crucifix and tabernacle, I think it makes more sense for the priest to face toward who we are offering our prayers to (Jesus, Truly Present in the Eucharist) than toward the people. I mean, if you were standing before a judge and talking to him, would you face toward the gallery or toward the judge?
I’m sure others will have different opinions, but that’s just my two cents!

 

[Monica4316]

well in the Latin Mass, people do understand the language, since we use missals with the translation.