Return to Latin Mass vs. English

[tee_eff_em]

I actually consider that to be very inclusive. I think if people can pray in their native tongue, there is more gained from it. They understand the what AND why of it all. Our church has a Spanish Mass every Sunday as well as Masses in English.

:twocents: I consider it exclusive that my Hispanic and Vietnamese brethren and I never worship together.

Of course I do not know if it was much better in former days, when I know there were places where the “German church” was around the corner from the “Italian church” which was across the street from the “Irish church”… (Except that today a bishop is less likely to be able to provide 3 pastors in proximity)

And to others posting in favor of the Latin Mass with continuity in all churches as the main theme, I get that too. It makes a lot of sense. And it would make the Catholic Church that much more catholic. All I wanted to say is that I don’t understand why there is so much of a push to return to that form. It wouldn’t make me want to leave the Church, but it would make it harder for me to feel a part of the celebration until I really felt “fluent” (for lack of a better word) in Latin.
One thing I don’t understand is the anger that seems to be part of some of the responses here. I’m inferring anger from some of the more sarcastic and caustic responses I’ve seen, granted, but I don’t know how else to take it.

tee

 

[IrishRush]

IrishRush:

Of course God is present everywhere, in and outside of the church. But He is present in a substantially different way in the Eucharist–Jesus, body, blood, soul and divinity, physically present under the appearance of bread and wine. Thus, during Mass, our attention is to the front, on the altar. And to the tabernacle when we come in, if it is present in the sanctuary.

The Mass contains two elements; vertical–offering worship to God, and horizontal–our coming together in community for worship and support. In the Extraordinary Form (what people usually mean when they say “Latin Mass”, though not necessarily) the main emphasis is vertical. In the Novus Ordo, it is horizontal.

People are different. I am speaking now strictly and only for myself. Many years of trying to practice my faith have taught me that for me the vertical is much more important. If that is well nourished, the horizontal portion flows out naturally. If the vertical is neglected, the horizontal shrivels up and “love thy neighbour” becomes meaningless. And that is why I prefer the Extraordinary Form (when I can attend it; it is still not available here.)

For over 40 years the EF has been largely banned, forbidden, unavailable, and those who prefer it have been put down and marginalized. Now Pope Benedict is trying to make it available for everyone who wants it. No wonder we are enthusiastic!

But 40 years of being put down for our preference has made us a little sensitiive–perhaps over-sensitive–to questions that seem to carry a negative weight. We go on the defensive very quickly.

And, as worded in your first post, those negative connotations were coming through, however unintended on your part. Your most recent posts have shown a willingness to learn and try to understand, and that makes an enormous positive difference.

I hope this helps.

It helps me tremendously! Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me. It’s all still pretty confusing for me because I was away for so long. But I do want to make one thing absolutely clear, and I don’t think I have up to this point. I do not mean to say that I don’t want a return to the Latin Mass, I just wondered why there was such enthusiasm (for lack of a better word) for it. I think I’m also a little worried about being able to learn it well enough to truly feel a part of the celebration. And for the record, nothing negative was ever intended on my part - I’m sorry if it came across that way. As I said in reply to another post, I’m fumbling in the dark with my hands out in front of me. You have also lit a candle for me and provided some light. Thank you and God bless you!

 

[IrishRush]

Ah, but you see, during Mass we/the priest are not talking to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. The focus of the Mass isn’t the Tabernacle. The focus is what is happening on the altar, and offering the Lamb to the Father.

If I can say so without appearing irreverent: the Tabernacle is irrelevant during Mass. We reserve the Blessed Sacrament to take to the housebound, primarily, and also to worship when it is NOT mass. During Mass, we are not praying to the Tabernacle.

Mass can and does take place without a Tabernacle being there. It is not part of Mass, but a reminder for afterwards.

During Mass at our parish the priest stands behind the altar which allows him to face us and the altar at the same time. Yes, the crucifix on the wall is behind him, but we don’t pray to the crucifix. As I said before, I feel that by facing us during the celebration it makes the congregation more a part of the offering. I understand that the priest makes the offering for us, but I like to feel that I’m part of that too. I love the reverence and the feel of the Holy Spirit during the prayers and offerings - I don’t know how else to explain this. I look forward to it all week! During Lent when our church had Wednesday evening Mass, I attended all of those too. I loved the way it bridged the week for me. I even told our pastor that I wished it could continue. He said that he would do this again during Advent and if the response was as strong then he would look into making it permanent. I pray that it comes to be. OK, totally got off track there but I’ll leave it in anyway.
Bottom line I guess is that I just love God so much, and am so grateful He never gave up on me. Being brought back to Him is the best thing that ever happened to me!

 

[perro_sarnoso]

When will Catholics understand that only the Cannons are in Latin.

The sermon is still in the vernacular. There are parts of the Latin Mass ( I was born in 1956) that would still be in our vernacular.

Pope Benedict XVI has emphasized that there is to be no conflict or friction between the two forms of the mass.

There is no elitism. Both forms are valid and cannonical. Jesus Christ will still be in body and blood at the consecration.

This had to happen. That is, a deeper reverence and devotion for the mass and the Eucharist. The Pope has deemed it necessary and I agree.

Long life and health to Pope Benedict XVI. De Goria Olivae

 

[Stitchwort]

IrishRush:

Thank you!

 

[BigDave31]

Good to have you back home Dave Dont worry in another 5 years I bet we will have you saying Deo Gratias!

I thank you for your greeting. It is good to be home. If I had realized that I was posting in the Traditional Forum I probably would not have commented. I mean no disrespect. I love the catholic church and am glad it is in english so that I can enjoy every moment of the mass. After all english is becoming the common language of the worlds bussiness. I wish that sometime I will take part in a latin mass to experience what you all do.

 

[IrishRush]

To all who have replied with explanations and suggestions - I can’t thank you enough. I am learning so much on these forums, especially with this post. I have to admit, with the first few replies I was sort of regretting ever posting anything about this but now I’m so glad I did. I’m learning SO much! So, thank you all once again - and please keep the lessons and suggestions coming. I need all the help and direction I can get.
God bless you all.

 

[ajpirc]

I Support Latin in the Mass (whether that be OF or EF), simply because I like being able to hear the same Mass from Washington, to Cardiff, from Beijing to London, from Paris to Alexandria etc etc etc.

I agree.

We are the Universal Church and should be speaking a universal language. If I were on a pilgrimage in a country that doesn’t speak English and I am at Mass, I would want to feel as though I were a member of the same family and understand the Mass instead of feeling like an outsider and not understand the Mass.

 

[MissRose73]

My parents were raised in pre-Vatican II. They are now in their 60’s, and my mother still remembers many of the changes that took place when she was in her late teens. Same for many relatives of my parents’ generation and those still living that are much older.

I only went to 1 Latin Mass many years ago, and it was quite different as I have known only the changes of Vatican II. I did remember to dress very conservatively with a long sleeve shirt & long skirt, and covered my head when I attended that Mass.

The Church gained many, many, many converts prior to Vatican II. And that was when the Mass was in Latin, priests said Mass ad orientem, communion fast was at least 3 hours, no meat was allowed on Friday, certain books were forbidden to be read, catechism was memorized, etc. Catholics all had a Catholic identity and were proud of it.

 

[Cat]

I agree.

We are the Universal Church and should be speaking a universal language. If I were on a pilgrimage in a country that doesn’t speak English and I am at Mass, I would want to feel as though I were a member of the same family and understand the Mass instead of feeling like an outsider and not understand the Mass.

We have a universal language, and it isn’t Latin. Yes, Latin is the Official Language of the Church. But it isn’t our “universal language.”

Romans 8: 26 says "the Holy Spirit also helps our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

All this talk of using certain languages in the Mass is not necessary. No matter what language we use, the Holy Spirit makes the prayer of the Mass “perfect” with the true language of heaven, too deep for human words.

 

[ProVobis]

After all english is becoming the common language of the worlds bussiness.

All the more reason why the Latin in the Mass (as well as in the law ) should be retained. The Mass is not a business.

 

[ajpirc]

We have a universal language, and it isn’t Latin. Yes, Latin is the Official Language of the Church. But it isn’t our “universal language.”

Romans 8: 26 says "the Holy Spirit also helps our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

All this talk of using certain languages in the Mass is not necessary. No matter what language we use, the Holy Spirit makes the prayer of the Mass “perfect” with the true language of heaven, too deep for human words.

The Holy Spirit may be the Heavenly language and unity of the Church, but the Earthly language of the Church is Latin which shows us the Earthly unity within the universal Church.

 

[InquisitorMax]

We have a universal language, and it isn’t Latin. Yes, Latin is the Official Language of the Church. But it isn’t our “universal language.”

Romans 8: 26 says "the Holy Spirit also helps our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

All this talk of using certain languages in the Mass is not necessary. No matter what language we use, the Holy Spirit makes the prayer of the Mass “perfect” with the true language of heaven, too deep for human words.

The Mass has to be said in some human language. There is a language that has over 1500 years on use in the Church, was universal for Roman Catholics, is very musical, has wonderful prayers and hymns associated with it and so …

… it must not be allowed to dominate again.

The thing about the Holy Spirit was that in the Bible He turned rough men into advanced and learned men of power. Anyone who heard them could understand them.

… so we’d better not revert to Latin. In case everyone could understand the Roman Rite everywhere.

 

[IrishRush]

We have a universal language, and it isn’t Latin. Yes, Latin is the Official Language of the Church. But it isn’t our “universal language.”

Romans 8: 26 says "the Holy Spirit also helps our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

All this talk of using certain languages in the Mass is not necessary. No matter what language we use, the Holy Spirit makes the prayer of the Mass “perfect” with the true language of heaven, too deep for human words.

Beautifully said! Thank you!!

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, Latin is the Official Language of the Church.

So what does that say for those who completely reject Ecclesiastical Latin?

 

[ajpirc]

So what does that say for those who completely reject Ecclesiastical Latin?

They try to get rid of it like they did with the rest of our traditions.

 

[TrueLight]

You know I can understand people being intimidated by an all Latin mass if you’re not used to it. But I don’t understand people who want the whole mass in the vernacular.

To use this beautiful language in in the Liturgy is to be as one with the Christians who came before us over a thousand years ago.

The Saints. the Doctors of the Church and regular folks like us.

All of us, no matter what station we were born in, praying the mass.

If that thought doesn’t make us humble, I don’t know what to say.

 

[ProVobis]

They try to get rid of it like they did with the rest of our traditions.

They’re an interesting book out there which I strongly recommend. It’s called “A Natural History of Latin/The story of the world’s most successful language” by Tore Janson. (There’s a Kindle version available.) Perhaps it makes more clear why so many Popes including our current Pope have strongly urged to preserving the Latin language not only in the Mass but in all the Church’s documents as well.

 

[ProVobis]

They’re an interesting book

Correction. Should read “There’s an interesting book.”

 

[IrishRush]

As I read through all of the responses, pro and con, a thought is occurring to me. I think maybe, for those like me who are rather intimidated by the idea of the entire mass in Latin all of a sudden, a gradual return to Latin would be somthing that is not so frightening. I think my biggest fear is that, now that I’m back after being gone so long, I don’t want to lose what I have, And if I can’t understand the mass, how can I participate? So what about gradually introducing Latin back to the Liturgy? Start with, maybe, the Agnus Dei. Who can’t love that - it’s absolutely beautiful! Then maybe the Lord’s Prayer. Just one thing at a time, slowly so we can adjust to the change and really learn the language so we don’t end up feeling like outsiders. Probably by the end of a year, maybe two, we would be doing the entire mass in Latin. I know if my church started off that way, and maybe offered some classes too, I would be very open to the idea.

But I still prefer the priest facing the congregation from behind the altar. Again, it’s all about feeling a part of the worship.

So how does that sound for a compromise?