Return to Latinization?

[Isa_Almisry]

Our NO is starting to adopt some Latin even a little because we have to obey the bishop.

Pope Benedict xvi is going to visit the USA next year so what if he says to the bishops all must adopt a little latin, what are you Eastern Catholics going to do? They are making us they can make you too.

We have gotten the word and I think it will happen to all, Coptic all the ones that were listed, don’t shut your ears and eyes to this because I believe it is happening now.

They took away our ignatious press hymn books, now ignatious is a good old Catholic press, and we aren’t getting a new one yet but I know it will have Latin in it.

I think , but of course it is a personal idea or speculation but we are getting the vibes pretty sure, you will have to mix Latin in with your Greek, and maybe even show proof such as purchased texts.

We were not asked if this is what we want but expected to honor our bishop and priest.

This was in the Non-Catholic forum. How do the EC feel about it?

 

[jimmy]

It will never happen. The Eastern Churches will continue to reject Latinizations. They will never use any Latin. Ask the Melkites what they will do. If anyone ever tried to force the Melkites to use Latin they would come out with a document condemning latinization and would say that the patriarchs of the east have equal authority to the pope. I would support what they say.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Isa Almisry:

dessert:

Our NO is starting to adopt some Latin even a little because we have to obey the bishop.

Pope Benedict xvi is going to visit the USA next year so what if he says to the bishops all must adopt a little latin, what are you Eastern Catholics going to do? They are making us they can make you too.

We have gotten the word and I think it will happen to all, Coptic all the ones that were listed, don’t shut your ears and eyes to this because I believe it is happening now.

They took away our ignatious press hymn books, now ignatious is a good old Catholic press, and we aren’t getting a new one yet but I know it will have Latin in it.

I think , but of course it is a personal idea or speculation but we are getting the vibes pretty sure, you will have to mix Latin in with your Greek, and maybe even show proof such as purchased texts.

We were not asked if this is what we want but expected to honor our bishop and priest.

This was in the Non-Catholic forum. How do the EC feel about it?

Isa,

That is very possibly the most ridiculous piece of speculative posting by a Latin that I’ve ever read. It isn’t worth responding to.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Rolltide]

Especially since the instructions for the Eastern Catholic Churches call for DElatinization!

 

[bpbasilphx]

&&If anyone ever tried to force the Melkites to use Latin they would come out with a document condemning latinization and would say that the patriarchs of the east have equal authority to the pope.&&

As a matter of fact, a Melkite Church in NYC was forced in the 50’s or so to celebrate in Latin.

Sorry I don’t know the full details.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Isa,

That is very possibly the most ridiculous piece of speculative posting by a Latin that I’ve ever read. It isn’t worth responding to.

Many years,

Neil

I pray you are right. I look/ed at the restoration of the TLM ( and the thread that revealed here that its supporters would support it in the vernacular over NO in Latin) as positive both for EC and Latin and EO relationships.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Especially since the instructions for the Eastern Catholic Churches call for DElatinization!

I wholeheatedly agree. I think that JPII and Benedict are committed to the Eastern Churches returning to their traditions. As a Latin Catholic, i would stand alongside my Eastern and Oriental brothers in support if Rome forced this on the non-latin Churches.

I know the trend is slow, but where is there still latinizations being forced in the other Churches?
If anything, my perception was that it was just a slow process to return back.

Maybe the Eastern Bishops should start ordaining more married men. I think that would go a long way showing good faith to our Orthodox brothers, as i honestly think that Rome would not challenge this if it became a regular practice again.

 

[jimmy]

&&If anyone ever tried to force the Melkites to use Latin they would come out with a document condemning latinization and would say that the patriarchs of the east have equal authority to the pope.&&

As a matter of fact, a Melkite Church in NYC was forced in the 50’s or so to celebrate in Latin.

Sorry I don’t know the full details.

That was the 50’s. The Zoghby initiative was issued in the 90’s.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

In the quote from the OP, I think that if the Pope said such a thing it would (or at least should) be obvious to all that the Pope’s intended audience is the Latin Rite Bishops.

 

[Edmac]

Am I reading this thread aright? Is someone under the impression
that Rome wants Eastern Churches to use Latin in their
Liturgies? Words fail me (or rather, if I used them, I’d probably
get banned).

Edmac

 

[ASimpleSinner]

This was in the Non-Catholic forum. How do the EC feel about it?

Ahh Isa!

to date, Posts: 4,088

If this is a legitimate question you must not be reading half as much as you post.

If it is what I in fact think it is, well played, provacateur!

 

[surgei]

I
Maybe the Eastern Bishops should start ordaining more married men. I think that would go a long way showing good faith to our Orthodox brothers, as i honestly think that Rome would not challenge this if it became a regular practice again.

There is actually a church law still in affect preventing the ordination of maried clerics in the US by non latin bishops. This is what lead St Alexis Toth to do what he did and lead several thousand Eastern parishes back to Orthodoxy. However the Anglican use of the Latin rite has many maried priests. Ordained by latin bishops. The law actually prevents any maried cleric from serving here unless he be a widower. It is for the most part ignored. Ignoring it could be seen as an act of disunity.
I think we could all learn quite a bit from Maximus IV. Latin bishops have no place telling eastern bishops how to live their lives in grace, if they are simply putting latin practice as dogma.
America has kinda got a lot of issues as far as at the episcipal level. Overlaping jurisdictions is crazy. You add to it that the west is constantly setting up paralell jurisdictions in Orthodox countries and you see why HH Alexi Patriardh of Russia and New Rome would wald out of talks with Roman Catholics. On the one hand the Pope says we should work to unity, on the other he says that the Orthodox are lacking and sends Latin bishops to set up latin sees in Russia. If we both have sacraments then me have the spirit and need to come to concensus on the issues that seperate us not convert eachothers faithful to the true faith of the (incert your church here).
Notice I said concensus not compromise. Compromise is what we can all live with. Consensus is what we all agree on.
In the end, I think not having a common cup is sinful, “is it not one cup which we bless.”

 

[East_and_West]

America has kinda got a lot of issues as far as at the episcipal level. Overlaping jurisdictions is crazy. You add to it that the west is constantly setting up paralell jurisdictions in Orthodox countries and you see why HH Alexi Patriardh of Russia and New Rome would wald out of talks with Roman Catholics. On the one hand the Pope says we should work to unity, on the other he says that the Orthodox are lacking and sends Latin bishops to set up latin sees in Russia. If we both have sacraments then me have the spirit and need to come to concensus on the issues that seperate us not convert eachothers faithful to the true faith of the (incert your church here).
Notice I said concensus not compromise. Compromise is what we can all live with. Consensus is what we all agree on.
In the end, I think not having a common cup is sinful, “is it not one cup which we bless.”

How is this jurisdiction issue supposed to work for those Christians who wish to be Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox?

 

[Volodymyr_988]

You add to it that the west is constantly setting up paralell jurisdictions in Orthodox countries and you see why HH Alexi Patriardh of Russia and New Rome would wald out of talks with Roman Catholics. On the one hand the Pope says we should work to unity, on the other he says that the Orthodox are lacking and sends Latin bishops to set up latin sees in Russia.

And what of Bishop Hilarion of Vienna?

Is he or is he not an overlapping bishop in a parallel jurisdiction.

It seems to me that the Russian Orthodox Church likes to have its cake and eat it too.

To paraphrase a famous person, perhaps the ROC should worry about the 2x4 in its eye and stop trying to remove the splinter from the eye of the Catholic Church.

 

[surgei]

And what of Bishop Hilarion of Vienna?

Is he or is he not an overlapping bishop in a parallel jurisdiction.

It seems to me that the Russian Orthodox Church likes to have its cake and eat it too.

To paraphrase a famous person, perhaps the ROC should worry about the 2x4 in its eye and stop trying to remove the splinter from the eye of the Catholic Church.

Hlarion is in Vienna as a result of communism. (The intelectual roots are in catholic countries and schools by the way.) Hilarion did not go there with the intent of converting the catholics but to sheild his flock in exile of their homeland in Russia. It is not at all unlike the bishops here in the US of both the Latin and the Orthodox tradition. Excepting those who were sent to evangelize the origonal peoples of the American continents.
My point was that on the one hand Rome is saying all that you lack is communion with Rome and at the same time they are seeking to convert the Russians to RC faith and tradition.
‘Dioceses of the Moscow Patriarchate in diaspora are not ordinary. Neither are they connected with local jurisdiction. They were established to provide pastoral care for people in diaspora, they do not have strictly defined boarders. In a certain sense, they are unusual dioceses and we always underline it in our dialogue with the Catholics’-Metropolitan Kirill

 

[AJV]

This was in the Non-Catholic forum. How do the EC feel about it?

Isa,
Without any offense intended to the poster, I would humbly suggest that she is a bit confused as to the exact relation of the Eastern Catholics with the Latin Catholics, and the restoration of the Latin language to the West.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Hlarion is in Vienna as a result of communism. (The intelectual roots are in catholic countries and schools by the way.) Hilarion did not go there with the intent of converting the catholics but to sheild his flock in exile of their homeland in Russia. It is not at all unlike the bishops here in the US of both the Latin and the Orthodox tradition. Excepting those who were sent to evangelize the origonal peoples of the American continents.
My point was that on the one hand Rome is saying all that you lack is communion with Rome and at the same time they are seeking to convert the Russians to RC faith and tradition.
‘Dioceses of the Moscow Patriarchate in diaspora are not ordinary. Neither are they connected with local jurisdiction. They were established to provide pastoral care for people in diaspora, they do not have strictly defined boarders. In a certain sense, they are unusual dioceses and we always underline it in our dialogue with the Catholics’-Metropolitan Kirill

There were Catholics in Russia before the rise of Communism. Catherine the Great brought in the Jesuits!!!
The only reason there are Catholic priests in Russia is that there were Catholics in Russia. The Catholics have now been shuffled around since the rise of the Bolsheviks. I know a man whose mother was transported from L’viv to Siberia during the Communist era.

So, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. It seems the ROC likes to white wash history like the Japanese government.

 

[surgei]

There were Catholics in Russia before the rise of Communism. Catherine the Great brought in the Jesuits!!!
The only reason there are Catholic priests in Russia is that there were Catholics in Russia. The Catholics have now been shuffled around since the rise of the Bolsheviks. I know a man whose mother was transported from L’viv to Siberia during the Communist era.

So, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. It seems the ROC likes to white wash history like the Japanese government.

So you deny that the work is a result or a part of Fatima and consecration of Russia to the IHM.
Rome doesn’t do that.
BTW what prelates have countered the claim?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

There is actually a church law still in affect preventing the ordination of maried clerics in the US by non latin bishops.

No there is not.

That law has been abbrogated, married men are studying for the priesthood, 25+ married men have been ordained to the diaconate.

 

[surgei]

No there is not.

That law has been abbrogated, married men are studying for the priesthood, 25+ married men have been ordained to the diaconate.

Where was it abbrogated?