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surgei
Guest
Neither Ea Semper Cum Data Fuurit have been revoked. As they put the clerics of on Church above that of another they are heretical documents are they not?
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
No that is a false dichotomy. A provacative one at that.
They were abrogated with the new Eastern Churches Code of Canon law. Buy a copy, read it.
Additionally the sui juris status the metropolia now enjoys puts all that out the window.
If you don’t believe me, write to Bishop JOHN and ask him how he has gotten away with ordaining married men to the priesthood and diaconate.
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Ghosty
Guest
Russians were asking the Catholic Church to come LONG before Fatima (from Catherine the Great to Vladimir Soloviev). The Russian Catholic Church was founded on the request of Russian Catholics before Fatima, and LONG before the “Consecration of Russia” which occurred in the 80s.
The Catholic Church wasn’t (and isn’t) sending missionaries to Russia, it was sending priest to help our fellow Catholics in Russia, just as the Russian Orthodox Church has priests in Italy and other “Catholic” countries.
Peace and God bless!
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
**The Catholics have now been shuffled around since the rise of the Bolsheviks. I know a man whose mother was transported from L’viv to Siberia during the Communist era.
So, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. It seems the ROC likes to white wash history like the Japanese government.**
Just excatly what does the Russian Orthodox Church have to do with the Bolsehviks, who were her chief enemy?
So, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. It seems the ROC likes to white wash history like the Japanese government.**
Just excatly what does the Russian Orthodox Church have to do with the Bolsehviks, who were her chief enemy?
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Ghosty
Guest
The point was that Catholics in Russia pre-date Communism, not that the ROC was involved with the Bolsheviks.
Peace and God bless!
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LakaYaRabb
Guest
aSimpleSinner,
Thank you for providing the pertinent information. The spreading of outdated false arguments against the Holy tradition of ordaining married men to the priesthood in the East has gone on long enough.
Thank you for providing the pertinent information. The spreading of outdated false arguments against the Holy tradition of ordaining married men to the priesthood in the East has gone on long enough.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Don’t work too hard on those words or get banned either one, my friend. This is just a provocation intended to upset Eastern Catholics. It’s nonsense. I could easily see the Pope strongly encouraging LATIN bishops to put some Latin into the N.O., or even encouraging them to restore the Greek Kyrie, which I would personally like to see restored. But Latin in the Byzantine Catholic liturgies? No possibility whatever! Do not be troubled.
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Kielbasi
Guest
Unless Latin displaces English as the predominate language in the United States(quite unlikely, needless to say), I can’t see a circumstance where Eastern rite churches would use the language.
But, if we understand “latinization” as Eastern rite people in the West adopting some of the devotional practices and thinking of the Latin rite, it has already happened and will continue to happen. The populations ain’t separate, they intermarry, go to school, work and socialize together. I think it would be naive to think that , over time, there wouldn’t be an influence.
But, if we understand “latinization” as Eastern rite people in the West adopting some of the devotional practices and thinking of the Latin rite, it has already happened and will continue to happen. The populations ain’t separate, they intermarry, go to school, work and socialize together. I think it would be naive to think that , over time, there wouldn’t be an influence.
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surgei
Guest
I have a copy although it is in storage now.
I actually use to have sections memorized.
Tell Bishop Michael Wiwichar that he was wrong then.
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Volodymyr_988
Guest
The ROC has nothing to do with the Bolsheviks.
But the ROC complains about priests being sent to Russia to minister to native Catholics while it builds a Cathedral in Rome.
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repo_man
Guest
why would he do that? that makes no sense. making american roman catholics use latin is part of going back to their liturgical roots. eastern catholics are already firm in their liturgical roots.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
Ea Semper & Cum data ferrit have proven time and again to be expedient sources of polemic. When it comes to beating that horse, any stick will do.
God forbid we ever actually take a look at the circumstances surrounding those documents rather than just insisting it was pure unadulterated, unexplainable, inexcusable anti-Easternism. To be fair, the Romans (think +Mundelien in Chicago) didn’t always fair well in the preservation of their ethnic distinctions within the Latin Church.
Far easier to rail agains the past, to cite old documents, and never consider that looking at the past with our modern senibilities and sensitivities might readily lend itself to some straw-man building.
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surgei
Guest
Wasn’t Chicago’s cardinal responsible for mistreating St Alexis Toth. Thank you for that by the way. It is not often the Catholics give us truly great saints.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
No, that was Bishop John Ireland of Milwakee. Get your revisionist history straight. Fr. Toth was well paid for his work in this life (drawing a salary from the Russian Imperial treasury) and the next with canonization for his efforts to bring the “uniates back into Orthodoxy” (never mind that the folks brought in had never been Orthodox - their ancestors may have been…)
Your sarcasm is noted. This is begining to feel like the old forum!
But please note the forum rules. If you want to share your opinions on the great saintliness of Al Toth, take it to apologetics or non-Catholics forum. This forum is for and about Eastern Catholic matters - not Catholic v. Orthodox. Read the rules.
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surgei
Guest
Sorry bout that. Didn’t meen to make you upset.
No I wasn’t being sarcastic. Had Bishop John not been foolish Alexi would not have worked the way he did. This is truly a Felix Culpa.
As a result we have a saint in heaven that may not have gotten their otherwise. My brother, a Uniate, has a great devotion to St Alexi. His Spiritual Father was ordained by Maximos IV and served him faithfuly through Vatican II, and for thirty years afterward on Mt Tabor. Maximos was given the oportunity to change the church. Alexi was not.
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Irish_Melkite
Guest
Referring to a canonized Saint of the Orthodox Church as “Al Toth” and suggesting that monetary considerations drove his priestly work are insults that have no place on this forum or any site proclaiming itself as a venue in which to discuss Eastern Christianity. I apologize to my Orthodox brethren for the rudeness of ASimpleSinner - who calls himself an Eastern Catholic.
Which is what they were, speaking of revisionist history. Learn the history of your own Church before trying to expound on it and looking foolish doing so. The circumstances surrounding them were nothing more than the Americanism that was promoted by the John Irelands and Patrick Ryans of the time. Such Latin hierarchs were to Eastern Catholics what the Know-Nothings were to Catholics in general - the only difference being that they employed subtler means than convent burning in their efforts to obliterate the Eastern Catholic identity!
Neil
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
I don’t call myself an Eastern Catholic Neil, I am one.
I apologize to the folks here for your own arrogant rudeness.
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yeshua
Guest
Now, it is like what people think was the old forum. Charity, please.
Peace and God Bless.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
And that Americanism was nothing more and nothing less ***than a view to thier own vision… ***Not a distinctive campaign of anti-Greek Catholicism, not an intent to single us out, out of their own pro-Latin sentiments. Certain of the Latin ethinics faired no better.
The expedience of painting it as a bigotry against us (certainly they were not our friends!) to indite the whole of the Latin church or demonstrate we have cause always and everywhere to mistrust and denigrate the Latins before they distrust us, is distorted and revisionist. Those men had agendas, and setting out to victimize ***us in particular ***wasn’t one of them. Enter +Hodur and the PNCC.
So I apologize for what has been perceived as the flippant tone on Alexis Toth, and I clarify that the counter charges against this man were offered to show that the provacative nature of his legacy is not wholly one-sided. By now we work through that - Bishop Josaphat comes to mind.
But efforts to call me out as being a “so-called” Eastern Catholic if and when and where I don’t fall into line with your hermeneutic of what it is to be truly Eastern… I stand by my resentment of that.
Afford those of us with differing sensibilities on what it is to be Eastern Catholic (you’re aware of my opinions, I am aware of yours - we all read www.ByzCath.org and www.orthodoxchristiantiy.net) at least as much accord as you would expect from me on Orthodox saints.
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Seamus_L
Guest
John Ireland was actually Archbishop of St Paul Minnesota, and while he was responsible for some unfortunate actions, he should be remembered for more than just causing a large number of Greek-Catholics to be lost to the Orthodox, and for supporting Prohibition. I’m sure some people would strongly object if I referred to Maximos IV Saigh as the pro-contraception Patriarch.
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