Returning to Catholicism after "changing sexes?"

[cathoichelp]

The OP should be extremely clear that for a Confession to be sacramentally valid, contrition (sorrow for the sin) is essential. I’m not in a position to know what a priest did or did not say, meant or did not mean, to this poster above, but there is no Church doctrine which approves of ‘going through the motions’ for its own sake. The minimum that a Catholic must have in the Confessional is what is called Imperfect Contrition (fear of God’s punishment), but the word ‘contrition’ is still in there. If the sin has not been regretted, the Sacrament is ineffective. (The graces do not materialize.)

OTOH, I would encourage any possible revert to avail themselves of speaking to a priest, including in the Confessional, about states of contrition or lack thereof. Very often, merely taking that opportunity is the first step toward moral awareness and eventually contrition of either the imperfect or “Perfect” kind. Because counseling with regard to possible or actual offenses is a legitimate part of Confession, and it is also legitimate for a Catholic to choose anonymity in that regard.

I did a quick search on catholic answers too this is close to what i was told (see the first question)
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/contrition/page2

To give you more background I actually did go to confession - and that priest told me exactly what Elizabeth said that i could not confess something i felt no remorse for and he tried to explain to me why i should feel remorse and i eventually got so upset i just walked out -

My bf’s priest told me this is incorrect he should have heard my confession and given me penance and attempted to keep meeting with me because simply the fact that i was there trying to work through it showed that i had conscience and awareness of the sin and somewhere inside was sorry-
but that I don’t need to feel those emotions when I confess…
I just have to feel like its a sin I wont repeat - I have to know its a sin…
he said being sorry makes it easier but especially in my case I was not going to do it again- that was clear - it was more a process of working though something very difficult.

at any rate -
What you said … and what the priest i went to said were a huge part of why I left the church- I have never gone back into a confessional.
So be careful… its a delicate subject for some people you can’t tell anyone how to feel - someone can not change their feelings they can only grown in understanding and that takes a long time.

This poster was looking for help getting back into the church so I think its more helpful to know that even if you don’t feel sorry you did something right now - in the Catholic Church you can still have your confession heard -

Anyway I am not a priest so I am only giving you second hand info-

Good luck!
I will keep you in my thoughts I hope you find a priest you can really trust and connect with

 

[Holly3278]

First of all, I want to congratulate you on your choice to return to Catholicism! Second, I think that going to speak to a priest and also receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation would be a good idea. Third, if you have Gender Identity Disorder, I would strongly suggest that you seek out a good Catholic therapist. Welcome home!

 

[Elizabeth502]

So be careful… its a delicate subject for some people you can’t tell anyone how to feel - someone can not change their feelings they can only grown in understanding and that takes a long time.

This poster was looking for help getting back into the church so I think its more helpful to know that even if you don’t feel sorry you did something right now - in the Catholic Church you can still have your confession heard -

No.
There are two separate things that you are confusing. One is the OP’s personal struggle. The second is sacramental validity. I was correcting you on the second, not the first. It is very important not to mislead any poster, including those returning to the faith, as to what sacramental doctrine does and does not say. If it was your “boyfriend’s priest” who said (naturally it’s second hand from you, third hand from me) that sin can be forgiven without contrition, that priest is theologically incorrect. But it is very possible that that is not what that priest meant. It was perhaps not his intention in that statement to your boyfriend to misconstrue Catholic theology, and even further it is entirely possible that what he actually said was that there is no harm in going to confession to have a conversation, and explore one’s possible sins and how one should feel about those. (I believe I indicated that in my previous post but would like to flesh it out here)

Priests do understand – they have this experience often – that the confessional is an opportunity for conversion of the unconverted. They cannot give absolution, naturally, to an unrepentant sinner, but, depending on the skill of the priest, the receptivity of the penitent, and the action of the Holy Spirit together, many penitents do in fact repent – then or later, as a process. Simply the confrontation and the recital, and/or the questions, can prompt awareness, which then can prompt sorrow. Some of us CAF posters have shared these experiences of our own.

It is just important, again, not to mislead as to the accuracy of the theology.

 

[cathoichelp]

No.
There are two separate things that you are confusing. One is the OP’s personal struggle. The second is sacramental validity. I was correcting you on the second, not the first. It is very important not to mislead any poster, including those returning to the faith, as to what sacramental doctrine does and does not say. If it was your “boyfriend’s priest” who said (naturally it’s second hand from you, third hand from me) that sin can be forgiven without contrition, that priest is theologically incorrect. But it is very possible that that is not what that priest meant. It was perhaps not his intention in that statement to your boyfriend to misconstrue Catholic theology, and even further it is entirely possible that what he actually said was that there is no harm in going to confession to have a conversation, and explore one’s possible sins and how one should feel about those. (I believe I indicated that in my previous post but would like to flesh it out here)

Priests do understand – they have this experience often – that the confessional is an opportunity for conversion of the unconverted. They cannot give absolution, naturally, to an unrepentant sinner, but, depending on the skill of the priest, the receptivity of the penitent, and the action of the Holy Spirit together, many penitents do in fact repent – then or later, as a process. Simply the confrontation and the recital, and/or the questions, can prompt awareness, which then can prompt sorrow. Some of us CAF posters have shared these experiences of our own.

It is just important, again, not to mislead as to the accuracy of the theology.

Ok I had to call him -
he said to repent you have to feel sorrow or pain for a sin … but remorse or sorrow is not the only feeling you can have in order to repent- because we can’t control our feelings… But feeling pain as a result of - or knowledge that you have sinned is enough to go to confession with.
I think it has a lot to do with the nature of the sin …

Anyway - what you are saying is what I have always been told… I had never heard anyone explain it the way his priest did … maybe he was just being kind to try and get me to come back to the church -
because honestly I have always heard exactly what you are saying and there is simply no need for me to even get into it because frankly in my case I am not sorry- So therefore there is no point in going to confession.

I digress- I apologize if this information was not correct. Thanks for clearing it up I will look into myself and see what i find.

My point was go speak to a priest if that is where you’re heart is.
Best ~

 

[cathoichelp]

This is the answer here on the forum so its incorrect here? if so maybe you know who to let know - if you search it on the site this is what you get

What is required is repentance, which is an act of the will. Remorse and regret are emotions, which you may or may not feel and do not have control over. Feelings of remorse and regret are not required, but they are helpful in keeping us from sinning again. One way to encourage such feelings is to develop a devotion to Christ’s Passion. Meditation on the agonies Christ suffered to merit for us the grace we receive through confession helps in developing a horror for sin and a just remorse for the sins of one’s life.

 

[cathoichelp]

contrition does not mean remorse … or regret
it means sorrow (sadness) and a resolution to not repeat the sin-
You can feel sadden by something you have done - and resolve to not do it again … without regretting it

I. The meaning of contrition: 1. Contrition is a sorrow and detestation of past sin, with a purpose of sinning no more. 2. Contrition includes two elements: (a) sorrow for the past; (b) a firm resolution of amendment for the future. Hence contrition requires forgiveness of injuries and the purpose of reparation and restitution, as far as necessary and possible, and of the avoidance of the occasions of sin. 3. Contrition is either perfect or imperfect (attrition) according as our sorrow springs from love of God; or from fear of punishment, hatred of sin, or other supernatural motive short of God’s love. If one’s dispositions are such that he would continue to sin except for the fear of punishment, his contrition is not sufficient for pardon.

But although contrition is defined as “sorrow,” the faithful are not thence to conclude that this sorrow consists in sensible feeling; for contrition is an act of the will, and as St. Augustine observes, sorrow is not penance but the accompaniment of penance.(5) By “sorrow” the Fathers understood a hatred and detestation of sin; in the first place, because the Sacred Scriptures frequently use the word in this sense: “How long,” says David, “shall I take counsels in my soul, sorrow in my heart all the day?”(6) and secondly, because from contrition arises sorrow in the inferior part of the soul which is called the seat of concupiscence. With propriety, therefore, is contrition defined a “sorrow,” because it produces sorrow, a sorrow so intense that formerly penitents, in order to express its intensity, used to change their garments. Our Lord alludes to this custom when He says: "Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida; for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Contrition.html

 

[Elizabeth502]

contrition does not mean remorse … or regret
it means sorrow (sadness) and a resolution to not repeat the sin-
You can feel sadden by something you have done - and resolve to not do it again … without regretting it

I. The meaning of contrition: 1. Contrition is a sorrow and detestation of past sin, with a purpose of sinning no more. 2. Contrition includes two elements: (a) sorrow for the past; (b) a firm resolution of amendment for the future. Hence contrition requires forgiveness of injuries and the purpose of reparation and restitution, as far as necessary and possible, and of the avoidance of the occasions of sin. 3. Contrition is either perfect or imperfect (attrition) according as our sorrow springs from love of God; or from fear of punishment, hatred of sin, or other supernatural motive short of God’s love. If one’s dispositions are such that he would continue to sin except for the fear of punishment, his contrition is not sufficient for pardon.

But although contrition is defined as “sorrow,” the faithful are not thence to conclude that this sorrow consists in sensible feeling; for contrition is an act of the will, and as St. Augustine observes, sorrow is not penance but the accompaniment of penance.(5) By “sorrow” the Fathers understood a hatred and detestation of sin; in the first place, because the Sacred Scriptures frequently use the word in this sense: “How long,” says David, “shall I take counsels in my soul, sorrow in my heart all the day?”(6) and secondly, because from contrition arises sorrow in the inferior part of the soul which is called the seat of concupiscence. With propriety, therefore, is contrition defined a “sorrow,” because it produces sorrow, a sorrow so intense that formerly penitents, in order to express its intensity, used to change their garments. Our Lord alludes to this custom when He says: "Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida; for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Contrition.html

Thank you, but I have a degree in theology.

What is required for the effective absolution is both true contrition and a firm purpose of amendment, as you will see in the parts (a) and (b), above. The passage above does not contradict that. Further, it distinguishes between perfect and imperfect contrition. Imperfect contrition is, as I said earlier, sufficient for absolution. But zero contrition is not sufficient for absolution.

I never talked about “remorse.” You did. There is nothing to contradict in my statements. Nothing. Not from this website, not from other websites.

Again, please do not mislead practicing Catholics, or people considering returning.

Editing: To refer back to my post 37. I meant regret in the same sense one means sorrow; that’s all. The word “remorse,” however, was not in there. That’s what I believe you were confused about. Sooner or later, the contrite sinner often does develop remorse; what is necessary for absolution, however, is precisely what I stated in post 37, and what is not contradicted but rather affirmed by the above citation.

In simple words, a sinner is either sorry or not. The degree of his sorrow is not the issue. It is the presence or absence of sorrow (contrition) that is key to sacramental absolution.

 

[cathoichelp]

Thank you, but I have a degree in theology.

What is required for the effective absolution is both true contrition and a firm purpose of amendment, as you will see in the parts (a) and (b), above. The passage above does not contradict theat. Further, it distinguishes between perfect and imperfect contrition. Imperfect contrition is, as I said earlier, sufficient for absolution. But zero contrition is not sufficient for absolution.

I never talked about “remorse.” You did. There is nothing to contradict in my statements. Nothing. Not from this website, not from other websites.

Again, please do not mislead practicing Catholics, or people considering returning.

And the post you corrected me on was me saying you don’t need to be “sorry” or feel remorse -
So what exactly is it you were correcting and i was misleading on - if we are both saying the same thing?

You don’t need to be snappy with me I really am just trying to understand what you are saying …

 

[Elizabeth502]

And the post you corrected me on was me saying you don’t need to be “sorry” or feel remorse -
So what exactly is it you were correcting and i was misleading on - if we are both saying the same thing?

You don’t need to be snappy with me I really am just trying to understand what you are saying …

I certainly was not trying to be “snappy.” I was trying to be accurate. Big difference, but I’m sorry if it came across that way.

I think my posts 37 and 47, which confirm the information in the link you provided, are sufficient, no?

Sorrow is not necessary to merely have a conversation with a priest, in a confessional. That can be the sincere inquirer, the anxious person needing clarification. That’s what our good priests are for, and i.m.o. overwhelmingly they do a marvelous job. Like you, I have occasionally had unfortunate experiences in the confessional, and I’m sorry you had such a one as well. I guess I have rarely met a Catholic who hasn’t had at least one of those, given the mathematical possibility of that, in the frequency of times some of us have to visit. Or should more often.

Sorry that my earlier smileys were not more effective.

But sorrow (“regret”) or what is called contrition of at least the Imperfect variety, is necessary to receive actual absolution.

 

[cathoichelp]

I certainly was not trying to be “snappy.” I was trying to be accurate. Big difference, but I’m sorry if it came across that way.

I think my posts 37 and 47, which confirm the information in the link you provided, are sufficient, no?

Sorrow is not necessary to merely have a conversation with a priest, in a confessional. That can be the sincere inquirer, the anxious person needing clarification. That’s what our good priests are for, and i.m.o. overwhelmingly they do a marvelous job. Like you, I have occasionally had unfortunate experiences in the confessional, and I’m sorry you had such a one as well. I guess I have rarely met a Catholic who hasn’t had at least one of those, given the mathematical possibility of that, in the frequency of times some of us have to visit. Or should more often.

Sorry that my earlier smileys were not more effective.

But sorrow (“regret”) or what is called contrition of at least the Imperfect variety, is necessary to receive actual absolution.

No problem …
I got it - i think haha
its rather confusing honestly “sorrow” has more than one meaning and perhaps I am just defining it differently.

At any rate - sorry to derail the thread

 

[Elizabeth502]

No, no. I don’t think you derailed. I think I didn’t get what you were meaning until you PM’ed me.

I think you were trying to distinguish between feeling, and what the Church technically defines as the mechanics of it resting in the reason. (That one is not required to “feel” sorrow to legitimately express contrition. One can merely come to awareness, through reason, that one’s behavior has been sinful, and internally and externally acknowledge that.) Inevitably, if one remains in relationship with Christ, and deepens that relationship, feelings of sorrow will accompany the acknowledgement of wrongdoing.

 

[cathoichelp]

No, no. I don’t think you derailed. I think I didn’t get what you were meaning until you PM’ed me.

I think you were trying to distinguish between feeling, and what the Church technically defines as the mechanics of it resting in the reason. (That one is not required to “feel” sorrow to legitimately express contrition. One can merely come to awareness, through reason, that one’s behavior has been sinful, and internally and externally acknowledge that.) Inevitably, if one remains in relationship with Christ, and deepens that relationship, feelings of sorrow will accompany the acknowledgement of wrongdoing.

Right
thanks for your patience :

 

[benidict]

This is the answer here on the forum so its incorrect here? if so maybe you know who to let know - if you search it on the site this is what you get

What is required is repentance, which is an act of the will. Remorse and regret are emotions, which you may or may not feel and do not have control over. Feelings of remorse and regret are not required, but they are helpful in keeping us from sinning again. One way to encourage such feelings is to develop a devotion to Christ’s Passion. Meditation on the agonies Christ suffered to merit for us the grace we receive through confession helps in developing a horror for sin and a just remorse for the sins of one’s life.

I would agree with you. I dont have normal feelings like most people. I find it hard to feel bad, good, if anything I feel indifferent most of the time. Unless I see a puppy… Or I am working with those less fortunate than my self. then I feel compassion. Not all of us have normal emotions. but we do have a will and a knowledge that we need to confess. Peace

 

[benidict]

This is so similar to how I felt, almost exactly.

:hug3::tiphat:

 

[larsenl1]

Well, for me, it’s not because of what you hear on Oprah lol. It wasn’t because I’m a “woman on the inside” or “have a female brain” or whatever some people claim. I don’t even know what that means? I’m just me inside.

It’s just that I’ve always, since I was born, thought I “should” have been born female instead. Not necessarily “wanted” or “wished” I was, but assumed I “should” have been. Why? I have no idea. I’ve tried to figure it out for decades, and never could. It just IS and always was for me. I’ve never known anything else. It didn’t “happen” to me one day, I never “realized” it, it was just always there from as long back as I can remember, nagging at me 24/7.

And throughout my life, people sorta treated me “as if” I was a girl. Hard to explain, but I confused people and made them uncomfortable, even though I’m not effeminate, never considered myself gay. It got to a point where ironically, I felt like people saw me as a woman trying to pose as a man, and getting mad at me for it. Not literally, I mean I was obviously a male, but life FELT like that for me. Like everyone “knew” my big, dark secret, no matter how hard I tried to hide it.

Eventually it wore me down. I felt guilty, like I was confusing and hurting people by giving straight guys “gay thoughts,” and confusing girls who couldn’t grasp that I wanted their friendship, not attraction.

So I gave up and did it. And honestly, it was no big deal. It’s not like what you see on TV or the internet. I did it quietly, adjusted my timing to consider the feelings of my friends and famly and coworkers, and everything went fine. No one really even cared, it was more of a sigh of relief from everyone.

And I’m OK with it, life makes sense for me and everyone now, EXCEPT for these nagging spiriitual questions I have. It seems everyone else is happy with me, but I just can’t figure out what God thinks now. It’s not like it’s something I can repent exactly, because every day I exist would seem to be a sin now.

I guess I just want forgiveness. For Him to realize I was in a tight spot, and kinda picked the lesser of evils, not for self-pleasure, but to stop feeling so incredibly guilty for the mess I seemed to be making of the lives around me.

Welcome Home! You most certainly can come back to the church. God has never left you. You are still Catholic, you just need to get your sacraments again. The church will see this as you chose to separate yourself from God. Like the prodigal son, you squandered your inheritance, but everyone will rejoice that you came back home.

Go to confession, as already advised. I am positive that you will receive forgiveness. The question is that you should live as your dna gender. Some people are born with too many chromosones. I wonder if during your change this was asked and answered. I wish you the best.