Reunification of Catholic and Orthodox churches?

[NoWings]

How interesting to try to make this a problem.

Look around you… it’s obviously a problem to someone. The churches aren’t united.

First, both Eastern and Western Catholics accept each other’s expression of faith. We would not be in communion otherwise. Does each member of each church fully understand these expressions? Of course not. Probably not even those of their own Church. So what?

So what? Council of Florence? The laity is influential, from what I’ve read, in the Eastern churches.

I suppose it is a comfort to those who study books on religion to think that that scholarly approach is somehow a sine qua non of Christianity. But Christ gave us an explicit teaching on how, in the end, we will be judged - and scholarship was not one of His criteria.

Nonetheless, humans use it to explain and divide their churches. There wouldn’t be any Summa Theologica without it.

Is it possible to co-exist with “different sets of opinions”?

No one is talking about co-existing. The CC and the EO already do that.

I work in the field of chemistry, and in the sub-field of physical chemistry. I can assure that there are categories, concepts and models used within my sub-field that are not well understood by organic chemists, or inorganic chemists. And these latter groups use ideas that I find useless in my own work, and moreover, view with some skepticism, as being not yet well grounded in fundamentals. But we all live and work in the same community and have a common sense of the beauty of each other’s work and the significance of each other’s contributions. We all understand that we are typically providing limited, but useful (we hope) expressions of a more complex reality. Thus, no serious scientist would waste any time nit-picking over categories, concepts and models used by others.

Yes, but chemistry is still based upon empirical evidence. Religion is based upon metaphysics, philosophy, and a mess of other things that can’t be empirically measured.

Take the filioque for example. The CC has explained it away from a difference between Latin and Greek. The EO say that they are essentially different. The thing neither one realizes is that God is unexplainable and humans fight with each other over things that are supposedly divine mysteries.

There is a limit to this collegiality, of course. Logically contradictory ideas, mutually exclusive ideas cannot both be right, and must ultimately give way to some better understanding. But from our history we learn that this usually means revisiting hidden assumptions and interpretations, and refining our categories, concepts and models. It is not about winning the argument, but about trying, humbly, to find the truth. Consider the great irony in atomic theory: the atomic nature of matter was fully realized only when we cut atoms.

Trying to find the truth…

Both churches consider themselves to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. They both believe they have the fullness of truth. Granted, there are Byzantine Catholics and whatnot that have come into communion with Rome, but it isn’t like they’re jumping to do this in droves. From what I’ve read about, EC is a rather sore spot where EO is concerned.

In the same way, Catholics can be inspired by the beauty of each other’s traditions and its manifest fruit. We can enrich and refine our own understanding through our interactions with each other. But those who want to reduce the discussion to facile questions like: “purgatory yes or no”, are just wasting time, and not advancing anything at all.

What is it, then, that the hierarchs of both churches talk about when they dialogue with each other? Why is Romania not coming to the next one?

They argue over “facile questions” because someone considers them important.

 

[dvdjs]

Look around you… it’s obviously a problem to someone. The churches aren’t united.

In this comment, you’ve clearly missed the whole point. My post was directed to the comment of Heschyios, who responded to your earlier comment by reference to the relationship between Greek Catholic churches and the Latins. These churches are all united; the problem that you raised is not a problem to us.

So what? Council of Florence? The laity is influential, from what I’ve read, in the Eastern churches.

What a leap! Yes, I suppose that many have the hubris to imagine that the safety of the deposit of faith lies in their erudition. However, if you think that Florence is an example of laity safeguarding the deposit of faith, you are in error. Florence was repudiated in Constantinople after the Ottoman conquest. In Russia, it was repudiated by the czar.

No one is talking about co-existing. The CC and the EO already do that.

The context was clear enough. I was talking about the existence in communion of Greek Catholic and Latin Catholic churches, again responding to Hesychios’s comment.

Yes, but chemistry is still based upon empirical evidence. Religion is based upon metaphysics, philosophy, and a mess of other things that can’t be empirically measured.
Take the filioque for example. The CC has explained it away from a difference between Latin and Greek. The EO say that they are essentially different. The thing neither one realizes is that God is unexplainable and humans fight with each other over things that are supposedly divine mysteries.

It is true that chemistry can be subject to empirical testing, and that this testing is of enormous benefit. But I was talking about categories, qualities, concepts, and models - constructs by which we organize our understanding of empirical results. And in this area we are often more interested in utility than rigorous validity. So the relation to metaphysics and philosophy may be stronger than you may realize. However the key point is that, given the history of the development of scientific ideas, we should appreciate the fact that the solving of arguments often requires a reconsideration of constructs; arguments are often solved by reconciliation of ideas, or the construction of new ideas, rather than the triumph of one perspective over another. People tend to get overly attached to constructs and language by which organize their thinking. This tendency could also apply to the way we organize our thinking about the manifestation of God, and may be an important issue in our separation.

Granted, there are Byzantine Catholics and what not that have come into communion with Rome, but it isn’t like they’re jumping to do this in droves. From what I’ve read about, EC is a rather sore spot where EO is concerned.

I am not sure that I get your point about “droves”, but the latter point should come as no surprise. If one insists that reunification must mean subsuming, and must involve intellectual dissonance, then the existence of sui juris Greek Catholic churches filled with good people working out their salvation without a paralyzing angst, requires some ‘splainin’.

What is it, then, that the hierarchs of both churches talk about when they dialogue with each other?

I don’t think you get much nit-picking or internet apologetics at these meetings. What is you point?

 

[NoWings]

I don’t think you get much nit-picking or internet apologetics at these meetings. What is you point?

Exactly what I said. What do they talk about? If they aren’t talking about the things that people nit-pick on the internet about what separates the two, then what is it that the hierarchs talk about?

 

[dvdjs]

They talk about many of the same issues talked about here. But on a different level and with a different tone. And the outcome is different as well, as you can see from joint statements published after such dialogs.

 

[dvdjs]

Here is link to a noteworthy speech by Fr. Thomas Hopko who was Professor of Dogmatic Theology and Dean at St. Vladimir’s Orthodox seminary.

 

[swariffin]

In my RCIA class a couple of weeks ago. My priest got to talking about the two churches (Catholic and Orthodox). He stated that he believed he would see a reconciliation in his lifetime with the orthodox church. Are there any of you guys that think this is possiable? And if so what makes you think that?
I do remember a couple years ago flippin through the channels and happened to stop on EWTN for some reason, (not even interested in catholicism at that time) and seeing the pope and leader of the othodox church together in what looked like a Mass ceremony? I guess that could be promising!
What about the Orthodox members here? You guys see this happening, and if it did how woul you feel about it?

God bless,
Jesse

It does not have to be in one single organization. By acknowledging each other’s eucharist is enough for me. For instance, if a catholic (and vice versa) take a communion in an Ortodox church he/she is considered as taking a valid eucharist.