Reuniting all the Churches of Christ, East and West

[Tomdstone]

The question I see here is how any reunion would take place and what a reunion would look like. Will the Catholic Church accept the teaching of the Orthodox Church on areas where there is disagreement today or will it be a simple case of allowing intercommunion without agreement on some of the major issues of disagreement. Does anyone here see any indication that the Roman Church is willing to change its teachings to accomodate what the Orthodox teach? I don’t see it myself.

 

[Lucky7]

Does anyone here see any indication that the Roman Church is willing to change its teachings to accomodate what the Orthodox teach? I don’t see it myself.

No…which is why I still stand by my assessment even if others don’t like it. If the Church changes its teaching on papal infallibility, what other doctrines could it change?

It just can’t be.

 

[Lucky7]

OK Thats the answer

BUT

What IS the solution:shrug:

My belief is that the Roman Catholic Church, while it can reach out to other denominations and religions, must **make it clear that it is the one true Church **with the fullness of Truth. The pope must continue to say things even if those words might ruffle feathers (which his most recent comments about only finding Jesus in Mother Church did). These sorts of comments help to make it clear that the other denominations must come into communion with the RCC, not the other way around. I think it’s dangerous to make it seem like we’re the ones who are going to “come around” by words or actions. If that means, the denominations push away from reuniting there’s nothing we can do. It may take thousands of years to convert them individual by individual.

 

[UncleBill]

My belief is that the Roman Catholic Church, while it can reach out to other denominations and religions, must **make it clear that it is the one true Church **with the fullness of Truth. The pope must continue to say things even if those words might ruffle feathers (which his most recent comments about only finding Jesus in Mother Church did). These sorts of comments help to make it clear that the other denominations must come into communion with the RCC, not the other way around. I think it’s dangerous to make it seem like we’re the ones who are going to “come around” by words or actions. If that means, the denominations push away from reuniting there’s nothing we can do. It may take thousands of years to convert them individual by individual.

Here is a link to a recent interview given by Fr. Robert Taft SJ, the worlds most prominent expert on Byzantine Liturgy. He gives a very good idea of what unity of East and West would be.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/2223/building_bridges_between_orthodox_and_catholic_christians.aspx#.UYJsv6KOSSr

Here is just one VERY important point.

CWR: Most Catholics probably envision future unity between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church as a re-installment of one world Church organization with the pope of Rome at the top of the governing pyramid. A look at history shows that such a model never existed, so what could Orthodox-Catholic communion actually look like if it were achieved? A renewal of Eucharistic communion? The possibility of an eighth ecumenical council? A resolution for the dating of Pascha/Easter?

Taft: What it would look like is not a “reunion” with them “returning to Rome,” to which they never belonged anyway; nor us being incorporated by them, since we are all ancient apostolic “Sister Churches” with a valid episcopate and priesthood and the full panoply of sacraments needed to minister salvation to our respective faithful, as is proclaimed in the renewed Catholic ecclesiology since Vatican II and enshrined in numerous papal documents from Paul VI on, as well as in the wonderful Catechism of the Catholic Church. So we just need to restore our broken communion and the rest of the problems you mention can be addressed one by one and resolved by common accord.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Would just a renewal of Eucharistic communion be possible?

 

[PJM]

=UncleBill;10694157]I am VERY thankful that Rome sees things VERY differently than you!

Actually I agree with what “lucky7” said.

Because Christ; following SacredmTradition founded only One Church and one set of Faith beliefs; others in an absolute sense must come “to Her”; and not expect “Her to come to them”; except with Open arms.

 

[McCall1981]

My belief is that the Roman Catholic Church, while it can reach out to other denominations and religions, must **make it clear that it is the one true Church **with the fullness of Truth. The pope must continue to say things even if those words might ruffle feathers (which his most recent comments about only finding Jesus in Mother Church did). These sorts of comments help to make it clear that the other denominations must come into communion with the RCC, not the other way around. I think it’s dangerous to make it seem like we’re the ones who are going to “come around” by words or actions. If that means, the denominations push away from reuniting there’s nothing we can do. It may take thousands of years to convert them individual by individual.

Though I do think it’s possible for the RCC to accomodate the Orthodox Churches without giving up the fullness of truth.

Here is a link to a recent interview given by Fr. Robert Taft SJ, the worlds most prominent expert on Byzantine Liturgy. He gives a very good idea of what unity of East and West would be.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/2223/building_bridges_between_orthodox_and_catholic_christians.aspx#.UYJsv6KOSSr

Here is just one VERY important point.

CWR: Most Catholics probably envision future unity between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church as a re-installment of one world Church organization with the pope of Rome at the top of the governing pyramid. A look at history shows that such a model never existed, so what could Orthodox-Catholic communion actually look like if it were achieved? A renewal of Eucharistic communion? The possibility of an eighth ecumenical council? A resolution for the dating of Pascha/Easter?

Taft: What it would look like is not a “reunion” with them “returning to Rome,” to which they never belonged anyway; nor us being incorporated by them, since we are all ancient apostolic “Sister Churches” with a valid episcopate and priesthood and the full panoply of sacraments needed to minister salvation to our respective faithful, as is proclaimed in the renewed Catholic ecclesiology since Vatican II and enshrined in numerous papal documents from Paul VI on, as well as in the wonderful Catechism of the Catholic Church. So we just need to restore our broken communion and the rest of the problems you mention can be addressed one by one and resolved by common accord.

Interesting, thanks for posting

 

[Lucky7]

Taft: What it would look like is not a “reunion” with them “returning to Rome,” to which they never belonged anyway; nor us being incorporated by them, since we are all ancient apostolic “Sister Churches” with a valid episcopate and priesthood and the full panoply of sacraments needed to minister salvation to our respective faithful, as is proclaimed in the renewed Catholic ecclesiology since Vatican II and enshrined in numerous papal documents from Paul VI on, as well as in the wonderful Catechism of the Catholic Church. So we **just need to restore our broken communion **and the rest of the problems you mention can be addressed one by one and resolved by common accord.

So…how does he think that is going to happen? It’s interesting that he really didn’t answer the question.

Our broken communion is largely due to the Orthodox Church not accepting the Supremacy of the Roman Pontiff (and there are actually other things which aren’t immaterial, but I’ll use this biggie as the main example). So I’ll say it again. Full communion/reunification will not happen until the Orthodox accept the Pope (ie. that the Roman Church has the full Truth).

 

[Tomdstone]

So…how does he think that is going to happen? It’s interesting that he really didn’t answer the question.

Our broken communion is largely due to the Orthodox Church not accepting the Supremacy of the Roman Pontiff (and there are actually other things which aren’t immaterial, but I’ll use this biggie as the main example). So I’ll say it again. Full communion/reunification will not happen until the Orthodox accept the Pope (ie. that the Roman Church has the full Truth).

And don’t the Orthodox themselves say that they are opposed to intercommunion unless there is agreement on teaching? Rome says it wants reunion, but at the same time, I don;t see any inclination on the part of Rome to change its views to accomodate the Orthodox Church.

 

[otjm]

My belief is that the Roman Catholic Church, while it can reach out to other denominations and religions, must **make it clear that it is the one true Church **with the fullness of Truth. The pope must continue to say things even if those words might ruffle feathers (which his most recent comments about only finding Jesus in Mother Church did). These sorts of comments help to make it clear that the other denominations must come into communion with the RCC, not the other way around. I think it’s dangerous to make it seem like we’re the ones who are going to “come around” by words or actions. If that means, the denominations push away from reuniting there’s nothing we can do. It may take thousands of years to convert them individual by individual.

The Roman Catholic Church is not the one true Church. The Catholic Church is the one true Church - and it is made up of the Roman rit3e and the Eastern Rites (and a few other minor ones).

And any Catholic Churches which are currently separated from the Catholic Church need to come back into communion with it. The Orthodox have valid sacraments, valid priesthood, and are currently in schism with the Catholic Church.

The Eastern rites which are in union with the Catholic Church may (or may not) be models for how the schism between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches may reestablish communion; that will be for those involved with the continuing dialogue to work out.

 

[Lucky7]

The Roman Catholic Church is not the one true Church. The Catholic Church is the one true Church - and it is made up of the Roman rit3e and the Eastern Rites (and a few other minor ones).

And any Catholic Churches which are currently separated from the Catholic Church need to come back into communion with it. The Orthodox have valid sacraments, valid priesthood, and are currently in schism with the Catholic Church.

The Eastern rites which are in union with the Catholic Church may (or may not) be models for how the schism between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches may reestablish communion; that will be for those involved with the continuing dialogue to work out.

When I say RCC, that’s what I mean. Not sure why that needed to be addressed.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Orthodox have valid sacraments, valid priesthood, and are currently in schism with the Catholic Church.

Is it only schism, or does it include heresy also on such issues as papal infallibility, divorce, and the Immaculate Conception.

 

[PJM]

=Lucky7;10697890]So…how does he think that is going to happen? It’s interesting that he really didn’t answer the question.

Our broken communion is largely due to the Orthodox Church not accepting the Supremacy of the Roman Pontiff (and there are actually other things which aren’t immaterial, but I’ll use this biggie as the main example). So I’ll say it again. Full communion/reunification will not happen until the Orthodox accept the Pope (ie. that the Roman Church has the full Truth).

Once again I say AMEN! to this view.

 

[otjm]

Is it only schism, or does it include heresy also on such issues as papal infallibility, divorce, and the Immaculate Conception.

the church holds currently that the orthodox are in schism. I would be extremely hesitant to start telling the Church otherwise. The issues were not the dividing issues 1200 years ago; imposing them on the current situation would have to be done by someone far more trained than anyone in these forae.

I think we are trying to make problems where there may or may not be problems; these are issues I leave to the experts.

 

[otjm]

When I say RCC, that’s what I mean. Not sure why that needed to be addressed.

Then say what you mean. There are far too many RC’s who have not the faintest clue there are Eastern rite churches, let alone that they are in union with Rome. It needs to be addressed because there are viewers who do not understand the Church’s structure and presume that Rome is the sum and substance of the Church. The Eastern rites are not Roman Catholic. They are Catholic. They not only have their own judicial code; they also have their own way of doing theology, which differs from the way theology tends to be done in the Roman rite.

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative; but John Paul 2 did a lot to acknowledge the Eastern rites and the fact that they are not mini-Roman rites. The Roman rite may be the seat of Peter and may be the largest and most influential of all the Churches, but it for sure is not the sum and substance of the Church as that would be to ignore the Eastern rites and the tremendous gift they are.

 

[Tomdstone]

the church holds currently that the orthodox are in schism. I would be extremely hesitant to start telling the Church otherwise. The issues were not the dividing issues 1200 years ago; imposing them on the current situation would have to be done by someone far more trained than anyone in these forae.

I think we are trying to make problems where there may or may not be problems; these are issues I leave to the experts.

As I understand it, the Catholic Church teaches the infallibility of the Pope and the Immaculate Conception as infallible doctrines which must be held? And the Orthodox do not accept these teachings?

 

[UncleBill]

Its posts like these…full of pontificating folks who know nothing about what they are talking about that make me question…why the hell do I stay in communion with the West?

 

[otjm]

As I understand it, the Catholic Church teaches the infallibility of the Pope and the Immaculate Conception as infallible doctrines which must be held? And the Orthodox do not accept these teachings?

Since both Rome and the Orthodox are discussing matters, I choose to let them discuss it rather than inject opinions for which I am not qualified.

If and how the issues which separate the two churches are resolved will be done by people far more capable than I; and spending time saying what one or the other has to do is pointless.

The history of the Church prior to 1054 has shown that the Orthodox accepted the See of Peter as final arbiter of matters. Not all matters had to be decided by the See, however,

How issues such as papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception will be resolved is really not my concern. The Church has never overturned a doctrine or said that it was not true; so concerns about that happening are pointless. As to how it may be worked out, that is not my concern; The Orthodox have great Marian devotion. I say let the experts continue on their work; our job is to hold them up in prayer.

 

[MaryT777]

What would be a good “beginner” book to study the Churches of the East?
Thanks.

 

[Lucky7]

Then say what you mean. There are far too many RC’s who have not the faintest clue there are Eastern rite churches, let alone that they are in union with Rome. It needs to be addressed because there are viewers who do not understand the Church’s structure and presume that Rome is the sum and substance of the Church. The Eastern rites are not Roman Catholic. They are Catholic. They not only have their own judicial code; they also have their own way of doing theology, which differs from the way theology tends to be done in the Roman rite.

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative; but John Paul 2 did a lot to acknowledge the Eastern rites and the fact that they are not mini-Roman rites. The Roman rite may be the seat of Peter and may be the largest and most influential of all the Churches, but it for sure is not the sum and substance of the Church as that would be to ignore the Eastern rites and the tremendous gift they are.

That’s fine, but if I do it again and I may very well do it because it’s a habit, just give me a gentle reminder. I would argue that most folks who say RCC aren’t saying it to the exclusion of any church that is in communion (even if they do not know about the different rites within it). Clearly this thread is about the big Catholic Church vs all of the other denominations that are not in communion with the big Catholic Church (although we are talking mostly about the Orthodox Church).