Rev 12, About Mary?

[Mvrk]

Hello, im new here. (sorry for my bad english)

i want to ask about Rev 12, A Woman clothed with the sun.

How to explain this Verse to Protestant?

I know that this verse is refer to Mary, but is there any Church Fathers explain about this verse?

Thanks

 

[Luke_K]

I’m not an expert on this, but I thought that this passage was not about Mary.

In the footnotes of my New American Bible, it says that the woman symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. “The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon…This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.”

And also, Rev 12: 2 says that the woman wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. So how could it refer to Mary if she was born Immaculate? She would not be subject to the consequences of the original sin of Eve, one of which was pain in childbirth.

 

[Soutane]

I’m not an expert on this, but I thought that this passage was not about Mary.

In the footnotes of my New American Bible, it says that the woman symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. “The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon…This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.”

And also, Rev 12: 2 says that the woman wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. So how could it refer to Mary if she was born Immaculate? She would not be subject to the consequences of the original sin of Eve, one of which was pain in childbirth.

First of all get a different Bible-the NAB has got just about the worst and suspect notes going.
God said he would INCREASE the pains of childbirth because of original sin,so therefore there was always pain asociated with childbirth.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m not an expert on this, but I thought that this passage was not about Mary.

Incorrect. It is.

In the footnotes of my New American Bible,

The footnotes and introductions to the NAB are worthless. Throw it out and buy an RSV-CE.

it says that the woman symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament.

The Woman represents Mary, the Church, and Israel.

THE WOMAN OF REVELATION 12
By James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp

And also, Rev 12: 2 says that the woman wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. So how could it refer to Mary if she was born Immaculate? She would not be subject to the consequences of the original sin of Eve, one of which was pain in childbirth.

Look more closely:

Genesis 3:16 - RSV-CE
16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Genesis 3:16 - NAB
To the woman he said: “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master.”

Notice the text says “multiply” which mean to increase or “intensify” something that was already present. Even Eve in her unfallen state would have experienced SOME pain in childbirth. God simply increased this due to her disobedience.

Therefore, it is possible that Mary, conceived herself without sin, experienced the amount of labor pain that Eve and all women would have known if not for the fall.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Revelation 12: 2 Birth Pains of the Woman in Revelation 12

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Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

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Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

There are a couple fathers that recognize the woman as being a partial reference to Mary, and partialy to the Church. Athanasius is one of the fathers that recognized a dual meaning. Edward Sri has an excellent book on the subject