Rev. 20:12 and Sola Scriptura

BigTurkey · Feb 26, 2006

Hey guys,

Sorry to bother you with a question you have heard about 100 billion times, but what is the Catholic respond to Rev. 20:12:

…The dead were judged according to the books, by their deeds.

?

Does it center around the disputation about correct translations (some translations make it seem like the dead’s deeds were judged according to the standard of the books -and- other translations make it seems as if the deeds of the dead were recorded in the books and were then judged)? Or does it center around interpreting the verse? Or both?

Thanks,

BT

Eileen_T · Feb 26, 2006

The book of life:

Also see Rev. 3:5
'"The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. "

The book of life is the roll in which the names of the redeemed are kept; cf Rev 13:8; 17:8; 20:12, 15; 21:27; Philippians 4:3; Daniel 12:1.

BigTurkey · Feb 27, 2006

Yes, but what are the other books? Some translations read as if they are books of the Bible, and others read as if they are books in which men’s deeds are written for use on the judgment day, in which the deeds written in the books are judged. Rev. 20:12 is a popular verse among defenders of sola Scriptura, so I was wondering what the Catholic response to this verse was.

-BT

Todd_Easton · Feb 28, 2006

Here are a few Catholic interpretations…

On Rev 20:12, the 1859 Haydock Catholic Bible commentary says:Then follows the last judgment, where it is said that the books are opened, and also that another book was opened. By the first book, may be understood men and their consciences; and by the other book, the book of life, that of eternal predestination.

Similarly, in A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, ed. by Bernard Orchard, et al., pub. by Thomas Nelson & Sons: 1953, on page 1207, it says:The books are the history of each [person], and, the Registry of the Saved.

Similarly, in The Navarre Bible: The Book of Revelation, pub. by Four Courts Press:1992, on page 142-143, it says:The author then turns his attention to the resurrection, when all men will be judged according to their works. He describes this by using the metaphor of two books. One of these records the actions of men (as Daniel 7:10 and other passages of the Old Testament, cf., e.g., Is 65:6; Jer 22:30) The second book contains the names of those predestined to eternal life (an idea inspired by Daniel 12:1: cf. also, e.g., Ex 32:32). This is a way of showing that man cannot obtain salvation by his own efforts alone: it is God who saves him; however, he needs to act in such a way that he responds to the destiny God has marked out for him; if he fails to do that he runs the risk of having his name blotted out of the book of life (cf. Rev 3:5), that is, of being damned. By using this metaphor, the author of Revelation is teaching us two truths which are always mysteriously connected—1) that we are free and 2) that there is a grace of predestination.

kujo313 · Apr 25, 2007

But doesn’t the followers of the Koran say that the Koran is true? Of COURSE the RCC will say that the RCC Bible is true.

You cannot tell one billion muslims that they are not right because they do not abide by Catholic Tradition. They’d need something more solid and concrete: Scripture accurately copied.

In a court of law, verbal quotes can be called heresay. Written evidence CAN be accepted.

RedSoxFan · Jun 20, 2007

kujo313 said:
But doesn’t the followers of the Koran say that the Koran is true? Of COURSE the RCC will say that the RCC Bible is true.

You cannot tell one billion muslims that they are not right because they do not abide by Catholic Tradition. They’d need something more solid and concrete: Scripture accurately copied.

In a court of law, verbal quotes can be called heresay. Written evidence CAN be accepted.

In a court of law it can also be an eyewitness testimony.

Daniel_Marsh · Jun 21, 2007

they did not have books like we do today. It is likely, the author is simply referring to manuscripts. A book like we understand it today, can be written on many manuscripts or scrolls in their time.

MBS1 · Jun 21, 2007

What is also interesting is a further reading of Rev 20. Where are the “dead” in this chapter? They were clearly “dead” as noted in verse 13: (all scripture quotes from the RSV on the protestant Crosswalk.com site).

“13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.”

“15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

To recap - many of the dead were in places called “the sea”; “Death” and “Hades”. These “dead” do not appear to have been in heaven at that time they were “given up” for judgement - (unless you want to argue that “the sea”; “Death”, and “Hades” were synonyms for heaven). Yet the names of many of these dead (so they were not the living) were in the Book of Life (so they were “saved”). The dead were in the Book of Life, but were not yet in heaven. I would also conclude that many of these dead were still in the Book of Life because scripture does not indicate anywhere in Rev 20 that ALL the dead from “the sea”; “Death” and “Hades” went into the lake of fire - only those whose names were not in the Book of Life. Is it possible that those “dead” who were not in heaven but were still in the Book of Life (so were “saved”) were being purified/sanctified before being judged? Otherwise, where exactly were “the sea”; “Death” and “Hades” prior to the final judgement?

Per the “books”/“book” argument - I would only point out that in verse 12 the terms “book” and “books” were both used twice, and I think the second time does explain the first. For example, for the “book” we find that:

"…another book was opened, which was the Book of Life…

That is rather self explanatory. For “books” we find:

“…standing before the throne, and books were opened…and the dead were judged from things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.” (RSV)

However, other versions of scripture list it this way:
“The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.” (NIV)
“and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” (KJV)
" And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." (New KJV)
“And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” (D-R)
“The dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.” (Good News Translation)

As you can see, there are a few differences here, but I don’t think the nuances take away from the meaning. It would seem to me, in my fully fallible interpretation, that the “books” were books listing the deeds of the dead by which they will be judged as to whether they will be thrown into the lake of fire or not.

Just another opinion. By the way, why is this verse used to support Sola Scriptura? That is something I don’t see here.
God Bless.
MBS1

walt2000 · Jul 31, 2007

------------------------------I keep the victory at the top--------------------------
----------------------THE FINAL WARNING TO MAN KIND-------------------
---------------------------------------Rev.20/1-15---------------------------------------

This story starts with the results of the white horse, at the end of the seven thunders after the wine-press.
------------------THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HERE AFTER.---------------
Taken from REVELATIONS OF CHRIST TO JOHN interp.by walt2000 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------FROM NOW ON READ FROM BOTTOM UP---------------
A final warning to man kind--------------------------------------Rev.22/18-19
the morning star CHRIST-----------------------------------------------------------

SINNERS-------------------------------------------------------------------Rev.22/15

THE TREE OF LIFE------------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

THE RIVER OF LIFE-----------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

HOLY CITY DRESSED AS BRIDE---------------------------------Rev.22/2

WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT----------------------------------------Rev.20/1

Also read Rev.4-5 This is when John is brought in spirit through the open door in Rev. 3/8 ----------------------------------------------------------
Rev.20 is part of Rev.4-5 .walt2000
For more info. read all my posts.walt2000

Gottle_of_Geer · Aug 1, 2007

BigTurkey said:
Hey guys,

Sorry to bother you with a question you have heard about 100 billion times, but what is the Catholic respond to Rev. 20:12:

?

Does it center around the disputation about correct translations (some translations make it seem like the dead’s deeds were judged according to the standard of the books -and- other translations make it seems as if the deeds of the dead were recorded in the books and were then judged)? Or does it center around interpreting the verse? Or both?

Thanks,

BT

This verse has nothing to do with the Bible - the mention of “books” is a metaphor, used to make the point that nothing whatever that any one does escapes God’s notice.

Rev. 20:12 and Sola Scriptura

BigTurkey

Guest

Eileen_T

Guest

BigTurkey

Guest

Todd_Easton

Guest

kujo313

Guest

RedSoxFan

Guest

Daniel_Marsh

Guest

MBS1

Guest

walt2000

Guest

------------------------------I keep the victory at the top--------------------------
----------------------THE FINAL WARNING TO MAN KIND-------------------
---------------------------------------Rev.20/1-15---------------------------------------

SINNERS-------------------------------------------------------------------Rev.22/15

THE TREE OF LIFE------------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

THE RIVER OF LIFE-----------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

HOLY CITY DRESSED AS BRIDE---------------------------------Rev.22/2

WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT----------------------------------------Rev.20/1

Gottle_of_Geer

Guest

This verse has nothing to do with the Bible - the mention of “books” is a metaphor, used to make the point that nothing whatever that any one does escapes God’s notice.

Rev. 20:12 and Sola Scriptura

BigTurkey

Guest

Eileen_T

Guest

BigTurkey

Guest

Todd_Easton

Guest

kujo313

Guest

RedSoxFan

Guest

Daniel_Marsh

Guest

MBS1

Guest

walt2000

Guest

------------------------------I keep the victory at the top-------------------------- ----------------------THE FINAL WARNING TO MAN KIND------------------- ---------------------------------------Rev.20/1-15---------------------------------------​

SINNERS-------------------------------------------------------------------Rev.22/15​

THE TREE OF LIFE------------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2​

THE RIVER OF LIFE-----------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2​

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2​

HOLY CITY DRESSED AS BRIDE---------------------------------Rev.22/2​

WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT----------------------------------------Rev.20/1​

Gottle_of_Geer

Guest

This verse has nothing to do with the Bible - the mention of “books” is a metaphor, used to make the point that nothing whatever that any one does escapes God’s notice.​

------------------------------I keep the victory at the top--------------------------
----------------------THE FINAL WARNING TO MAN KIND-------------------
---------------------------------------Rev.20/1-15---------------------------------------

SINNERS-------------------------------------------------------------------Rev.22/15

THE TREE OF LIFE------------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

THE RIVER OF LIFE-----------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST------------------------------------------------Rev.22/2

HOLY CITY DRESSED AS BRIDE---------------------------------Rev.22/2

WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT----------------------------------------Rev.20/1

This verse has nothing to do with the Bible - the mention of “books” is a metaphor, used to make the point that nothing whatever that any one does escapes God’s notice.