Rev 20:3 question

[garysibio]

As a Catholic I believe the Millenium refers to the Church age. This verse says that Satan will be bound and unable to deceive the nations (Gentiles?) During this period. Clearly this is not the case. How do we explain this discrepancy?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

As a Catholic I believe the Millenium refers to the Church age. This verse says that Satan will be bound and unable to deceive the nations (Gentiles?) During this period. Clearly this is not the case. How do we explain this discrepancy?

Rev. is a book hard to interpret…

 

[bmullins]

Just wanted to share this from the Ignatius study bible:

Rev 20:1-6 The binding of Satan and the millennial reign of Christ. Three views of the millennium have dominated theological discussion over the centuries.

(1) Premillenialism is the view that Christ, when he comes again, will establish his reign on earth for 1,000 years. Also called chiliasm (from the Greek word for “one thousand”), this interpretation was popular in the second and third centuries (e.g., St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 80). A modern version, advanced by Protestant dispensationalists, holds that the Church will be gathered into heaven at the Second Coming, after which Christ will restore the theocratic kingdom of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years and fulfill all of God’s promises to ethnic Israel.

(2) *Postmillennialism * interprets the 1000 years as symbolizing that period of history during which the gospel goes forth and gradually has its full effect of Christianizing the world. Once this global process is complete, Christ will return in glory. Advocates generally hold that the length of the millennium is beyond our ability to calculate.

(3) Amillennialism, like Postmillennialism, holds to a symbolic view of the 1000 years and does not envision Christ reigning on earth in visible form. The millennium is said to represent the entire stretch of history between the First and Second Coming, that time when Christ reigns in a spiritual and sacramental way through the Church. Rising to prominence in the fourth and fifth centuries, this has probably been the most widely held view among Catholic theologians throughout history (beginning with St. Augustine, City of God 20,9).

The background of the millennium may be traced to the period of the Davidic covenant, which was established 1000 years before the coming of Christ. The age began with David extending his rule over Israel and other nations (2 Sam 5-8) and with Solomon instructing the nations in the ways of righteousness (1 Kings 10:1-20, 23-24). It is also a time when the faithful of Israel first experienced martyrdom for their faith (Dan 3:16-23; 2 Mac 7:1-42). The images in 20:1 also have links with Davidic traditions: the key recalls the key of David in 3:7; the pit of the netherworld was believed to be sealed off by the foundation stone of Solomon’s temple; and the** chain** that prevents deception may reflect the tradition that a chain hung in Solomon’s courtroom and was used to verify the truthfulness of testimony given under oath. These and other features of the Davidic age prefigure the messianic age, during which Christ reigns over the Church and the world as the royal Davidic Messiah.

The Catholic Church rejects all forms of millenarianism (i.e. chiliasm), which contends that Christ will come again to establish a visible kingdom on earth and to inaugurate a golden age of peace and prosperity with human history (Decree of the Holy Office, 1944) (CCC 676)

Ignatius Study Bible

 

[TimothyH]

As a Catholic I believe the Millenium refers to the Church age. This verse says that Satan will be bound and unable to deceive the nations (Gentiles?) During this period. Clearly this is not the case. How do we explain this discrepancy?

I don’t think this is the only valid interpretation but I happen to agree here.

Satan will not be able to decieve the nations/gentiles if they are enlightened by the teaching of the Church and make a concious decision to hear, listen, obey and make decisions based on the teaching of the Church.

Christ told us to render to Ceasar what is Ceasars and render to God what is God’s. Building roads is within Ceasar’s scope of authority and matters of faith and morals are God’s, and therefor the Church’s. But when the civil authorities, organizations, and individuals who are not authoritative when it comes to teaching on matters of faith and morals have decisions to make within their own scope of authority, they must always make those decisions illuminated by the light of the Church. God comes first, and how the government builds roads should be based first on what the Church has to say about how we are to treat each other, and only then on matters specific to road building.

Abortion is a perfect example. We claim that it is healthcare but it goes against the teaching of God through His Holy Church. So we have made healthcare decisions which go against God’s teaching. We havn’t “Listened” and so Satan is able to decieve us. Satan is not chained.

Satan is chained only insofar as we listen, try our best to discern God’s will, and try our best to live out that discerned will in everyday life. Then, through our cooperation, the Holy Spirit makes his abode in us and we are protected from Satan. When we reject God’s voice and don’t listen, we unchain Satan.

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! 5Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength. (Dueteronomy 6:4)

When the Israelites spoke of “Hearing”, it meant obeying too. Like a mother who’s child disobeys and she says, “You didn’t listen to me!” She does not mean that the child did not hear the words of her instruction, but that the Child did not obey.

We don’t “Hear” God and so unchain Satan.

-Tim-

 

[pablope]

As a Catholic I believe the Millenium refers to the Church age. This verse says that Satan will be bound and unable to deceive the nations (Gentiles?) During this period. Clearly this is not the case. How do we explain this discrepancy?

In addition to post #3…Amillenialism (from scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html)

(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with Catholic teaching (the pre and post-millennium views have been rejected by the Church).

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is a footnote from the Aquinas Study Bible on Rev 20:3

20:3 set a seal upon him: that it was designed to keep it a secret who belonged to the devil’s party and who did not. For in this world this is a secret, for we cannot tell whether even the man who seems to stand shall fall, or whether he who seems to lie shall rise again. no more suduce the nations: The devil, then, is bound and shut up in the abyss that he may not seduce the nations from which the Church is gathered, and which he formerly seduced before the Church existed. For it is not said that he should not seduce any man, but that he should not seduce the nations— meaning, no doubt, those among which the Church exists. (St. Augustine City of God 20) he must be loosed for a little while: Peter Auriol and Alexander Minorita explain with regards to the time of the Antichrist when the power of the Devil will be released to deceive the nations. (Nicholas of Lyra)

 

[garysibio]

First of all, thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it. I was aware of the three different positions held by Christians and was aware that the Catholic Church teaches the amillennial position.

Here is the relevant verses from Rev 20 (NJB):

1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven with the key of the Abyss in his hand and an enormous chain.
2 He overpowered the dragon, that primeval serpent which is the devil and Satan, and chained him up for a thousand years.
3 He hurled him into the Abyss and shut the entrance and sealed it over him, to make sure he would not lead the nations astray again until the thousand years had passed. At the end of that time he must be released, but only for a short while.

Let’s face it, Satan has been leading the nations astray during the Church Age. There are no qualifications in this passage. It doesn’t just refer to nations where the Church is active. Pope Paul VI said that the smoke of Satan had entered the Catholic Church. If Satan is leading some astray in the Church, how could he not be active in nations where the Church is active.

Prior to Augustine of Hippo the ECFs seem to predominantly favor the premillenial position. Augustine was an amillenialist. The comment provided by Copeland 3 seems to me like he’s trying to get around an obvious objection to his position on a par with some of the things we hear from some Protestant dispensationalist apologists. I know this won’t sit well with some but I have to deal with what I see in Scripture in an honest manner.

 

[bmullins]

I’ve always taken it to mean something to the effect of, when God is in your heart, Satan can’t touch you. The 1000 years to me has always been symbolic. That when God is in charge, Satan is bound. When God is not in charge… Satan is not bound. etc

 

[garysibio]

I’ve always taken it to mean something to the effect of, when God is in your heart, Satan can’t touch you. The 1000 years to me has always been symbolic. That when God is in charge, Satan is bound. When God is not in charge… Satan is not bound. etc

The passage specifically says “the nations.” It says nothing about individuals.

 

[bmullins]

The passage specifically says “the nations.” It says nothing about individuals.

A nation is made up of individuals. The Jewish mindset was not “I am a Jew” but “We are Israel.” To me that is a clear indicator that it’s very possible that John was saying that if the people allow God to control them, then Satan is bound. If they don’t, then he is loosed. That Satan is bound ‘forever’ as long as God is in charge.

This is just a personal thought, not church doctrine.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Eusebius, Origen, and St. Athanatius were amillennialists. Origen saw that the premill concept was something that could be traced to the Jewish expectation of the Messiah coming to overthrow the Roman empire and setting up an earthly kingdom, while misunderstanding that the Messiah was coming as a suffering servant and was going to establish a spiritual kingdom, the Church. We see that misplaced expectation all through the Gospels, even by the disciples. The earthly kingdom mindset carried over with many of the Jewish converts and no wonder it became popular among the early Christians to assume that Christ’s 2nd coming would usher in an earthly kingdom since the 1st coming did not.

Eusebius had the writings of St. Papias on hand, which are now lost. But he was not impressed with them. No doubt Papias had great influence on some of those after him such as St. Justin, Ignatius, Hippolytus, etc. But if you look at what any of the early Fathers wrote about the millennium you will see a very undeveloped understanding and interpretation, not to mention that their statements have no systematic understanding, and they tend to conflict even with their own statements.

 

[TimothyH]

A nation is made up of individuals. The Jewish mindset was not “I am a Jew” but “We are Israel.” To me that is a clear indicator that it’s very possible that John was saying that if the people allow God to control them, then Satan is bound. If they don’t, then he is loosed. That Satan is bound ‘forever’ as long as God is in charge.

This is just a personal thought, not church doctrine.

I believe it has a good basis in scripture.

God called Israel “My chosen Son” in the book of Exodus, instructing Moses to tell pharaoh to “Let my son go”

So you will say to Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD: Israel is my son, my firstborn. (Exodus 4:22)

Notice that “Son” is singular. Israel as a nation is God’s son because they alone are under he covenant. This gives rise to the mindset which you mention, and is part of the reason why those who sinned were expelled from the community, or had to sleep outside of the camp until they were purified.

It is the Jewish people as a whole - God’s chosen Son - who were under the covenant and therefor under the Law of Moses. And the belief was that when everyone was perfectly holy, the messiah would come. If you were not perfectly holy, you were personally preventing the messiah from coming, and so you had to be expelled, or at a minimum, purified before you could be let back in.

The idea of “Nations” is something which Jesus himself speaks about many times, but it is hidden.

"The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field; it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches." (Matthew 13:31-32)

In the Bible, large trees often represent strong nations. Likewise, birds often represent the gentiles. Jesus says that God’s kingdom is very small, hidden, but that it will grow into a strong nation, and that the gentiles will find a home (nest) there.

Even the feeding of the five thousand and four thousant tell us about the nations. In the story of the feeding of the four thousand with seven baskets left over in Matthew 15, Jesus tells us that the Gentile nations will be brought to perfection. The number seven (seven baskets) always represented perfection while the number four (four thousand fed) represents the four corners of the earth - the gentiles.

I’m a little off on a tangent here. Please accept my apologies. But I think it illustrates how we can’t take the literal sense of scripture and assume that it is the only intepretation. trees, fig trees, nations, birds, 144,000, dogs, water… they all have hidden meaning and we have to have the eyes and ears of a first century Jew to figure it out.

-Tim-

 

[Speedypizza]

The book of Revelation is talking about the Catholic Mass. Specifically, it is talking about how the mass is Gods will on earth as it is in heaven. You are all getting lost in the details and not seeing the trees from the forest.

Below are some (many) verses that point this out, however another thing to keep in mind is that the very book itself is divided just like Mass is. The first 11 chapters, all of the action is around what? SCROLLS, kinda like a SCRIPTURE READING. The 2nd 11 chapters all of the action is around what? A LAMB STANDING AS IF SLAIN. Kinda like the EUCHARIST?

Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.

Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.

Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.

Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as “alter Christuses” (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests (“presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:8 - heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God’s word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven’s description of Jesus as the “Lamb” is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.

Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross (“tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.

Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.

Rev. 11:12 - the phrase “come up here” is similar to the priest’s charge to “lift up your hearts” at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 12:7 - heaven’s emphasis on the Archangel Michael’s intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.

Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the “Gloria” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the “Alleluia” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

 

[u8nc]

Satan will not be able to decieve the nations/gentiles if they are enlightened by the teaching of the Church and make a concious decision to hear, listen, obey and make decisions based on the teaching of the Church

When a church accepts government funds for its various programmes, then it has to toe the party line. You can work out the inevitable results from there.

 

[bmullins]

When a church accepts government funds for its various programmes, then it has to toe the party line. You can work out the inevitable results from there.

Yeah, you can tell the Catholic church is ‘toeing party lines’ when it has to close many of it’s programs because of government intervention. Notice how they recently had to close adoption centers in many states because of government intervention. There was no ‘toeing’. The government said you must go against what you believe or close, so they closed.

All denominations in America accept government funds (either directly or indirectly.)

 

[onlyvoice]

As a Catholic I believe the Millenium refers to the Church age. This verse says that Satan will be bound and unable to deceive the nations (Gentiles?) During this period. Clearly this is not the case. How do we explain this discrepancy?

If we take that revelation to mean what it says (premillenialism) there will be no difficulties. Resorting to interpretations would result to a lot of problems.

 

[bmullins]

Stumbled across this video tonight while searching for something entirely different.

What do Catholics believe about the Millennium?

 

[u8nc]

go against what you believe or close, so they closed.

well thats refeshing. ( In a sense ) The Uniting Church here in Australia continually becomes more and more conformed to the world and its systems. And that has been the subject of many people leaving from time to time as they reel from one “issue” to another. We ourselves have left formally in terms of membership, but remain with our church family congregation becuase we are a sort of rural backwater and left to our own devices by the Kremlin in the big smoke.

I guess our final wave will be when the social justice and health care arms of the church starts dating its documents and calendars etc in CE instead of AD.

Good to see yourleadership doing what itis supposed to.

 

[ryanoneil]

As a Catholic I believe the Millenium refers to the Church age. This verse says that Satan will be bound and unable to deceive the nations (Gentiles?) During this period. Clearly this is not the case. How do we explain this discrepancy?

Perhaps Satan cannot stop the missionary efforts of the Church among the nations?

 

[John7]

As a Catholic I believe the Millenium refers to the Church age. This verse says that Satan will be bound and unable to deceive the nations (Gentiles?) During this period. Clearly this is not the case. How do we explain this discrepancy?

i take a different point of view. 2.2 billion Christians on the planet (1.2 bill Catholics) and growing (esp. in Africa and China).

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Can see in the above verse that (even though Satan is bound at the cross) the spirit of antichrist is in the world. If satan was loose, imo there’d be basically no one coming to Christ, which is clearly not the case. Binding of satan doesn’t necessarily mean the complete cessation of all activities of wicked entities. In spite of wicked activities going on in the world, while satan is bound, the holy gospel continues to go out gathering souls.