Rev 5:8 Who are the saints?

[Hap]

I have been using Rev 5:8 in regards to defending prayers to the saints. But, who are the saints in Rev 5:8? The scriptures’ speak of those on earth as saints as well (Eph 1:1,Phil 1:1, Col 1:2). How can I show that the saints spoken of in Rev 5:8 are the saints in heaven and not the prayers from the saints on earth?

 

[Nita]

Haven’t been able to find a whole lot.

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott:
*2 Mac 15:11-16 attests the faith of the Jewish people in the intercession of the saints: Judas the Maccabean sees in a “credible” vision how two deceased just men, the High Priest Onias and the Prophet Jeremias, intercede with God for the Jewish people and for the Holy City. cf. Jeremiah 15:1. According to Tobit 12:12; Apoc. 5:8 and 8:3 *, the angels and the saints lay the prayers of the holy on earth at the feet of God, that is they support them with their intercession as also might be expected from the permanency of charity (1 Cor 13:8)…

(The Tobit passage refers only to the angel Raphael)

I don’t know of any verse where the actual word “saint” is used to apply (or include those) in heaven - other than possibly the Rev. passages (5:8 and probably 6:8). It is used everywhere else to refer to the faithful on earth, or to them while they were on earth.

In the Rev 5:8 passage, the 24 elders would definitely include heavenly saints. However, the “prayers of the saints” isn’t clarified, and it may well refer to the faithful on earth. Thus, the faithful in heaven (24 elders) present our (saint’s) prayers to God.

Afraid I haven’t been of much help to you. Perhaps someone else will be able to.

God bless,
Nita

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. The prayers of saints… Here we see that the saints in heaven offer up to Christ the prayers of the faithful upon earth.

newadvent.org/bible/rev005.htm

I am protestant and if I were arguing your case I would start with the Saints in Heavn Praising God which is a form of prayer.

Basically, if they praise God in heaven, why would they NOT also pray to God for people they remember from earth?

God will wipe away our tears, why? because people will be going to hell? for our own sins while on earth? both maybe?

 

[Hap]

So it is the 24 elders(heavenly saints) offering the prayers of the saints on earth?

In my debate I have been saying that Rev. 5:8, Rev 8:3-4 shows that the saints in heaven are praying for us. As a Catholic it seems clear to me that the saints are praying for us in Rev., but I’m just having trouble explaining it to a Prostestant as to why Rev 5:8 represents the saints in heaven.

 

[Penitus]

The elders (the saints in Heaven) pass along the prayers of the living saints on earth (Christians). Rev 5:8 proves Catholic teaching.

 

[Nita]

So it is the 24 elders(heavenly saints) offering the prayers of the saints on earth?
.

Just wanted to clarify that “24 elders” is not necessarily an expression for “all the saints in heaven”. One interpretation is that it is a reference to the twelve sons of Jacob and the twelve apostles - 24 humans who are now in heaven.
Another interpretation is that it refers to the Old Covenant people founded on the 12 tribes of Israel, and the New Covenant people founded on the 12 apostles. In which case it would refer to a lot more than 24 people - hopefully!

In my debate I have been saying that Rev. 5:8, Rev 8:3-4 shows that the saints in heaven are praying for us. As a Catholic it seems clear to me that the saints are praying for us in Rev., but I’m just having trouble explaining it to.

The saints in heaven do pray for us. We know it because our Church teaches it; from human reason concerning love; the reality of the communion of saints; etc. The problem is, I doubt any of that will be accepted by the Protestant minister, especially if he doesn’t want to believe. He will probably accept only a clear Scripture passage in the Protestant Bible - and if there is one I’m not aware of it. (The Maccabees’ passage demonstrates it, but Protestants don’t accept that book as Scripture.)

You know, it just doesn’t seem that “saints” was a title applied to those in heaven at the time Scripture was written. Going to have to see if I can track down some history on use of the word.

Found some history. Real quick before edit time runs out - here’s the website:
encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-saint-relig.html

Nita

 

[Hap]

Just wanted to clarify that “24 elders” is not necessarily an expression for “all the saints in heaven”. One interpretation is that it is a reference to the twelve sons of Jacob and the twelve apostles - 24 humans who are now in heaven.
Another interpretation is that it refers to the Old Covenant people founded on the 12 tribes of Israel, and the New Covenant people founded on the 12 apostles. In which case it would refer to a lot more than 24 people - hopefully!

The saints in heaven do pray for us. We know it because our Church teaches it; from human reason concerning love; the reality of the communion of saints; etc. The problem is, I doubt any of that will be accepted by the Protestant minister, especially if he doesn’t want to believe. He will probably accept only a clear Scripture passage in the Protestant Bible - and if there is one I’m not aware of it. (The Maccabees’ passage demonstrates it, but Protestants don’t accept that book as Scripture.)

You know, it just doesn’t seem that “saints” was a title applied to those in heaven at the time Scripture was written. Going to have to see if I can track down some history on use of the word.

Nita

Thanks for your help I guess it does show that the elders are aware of our prayers.

 

[ryanoneil]

From a preterist view, the saints of Revelation include the Christian martyrs who died prior to the destruction of the Temple. These martyrs under the alter in (Rev 6:9) are among the 144,000 of (Rev 14), who are among the saints of (5:8)

Notice the martyrs cry out to God for justice against their persecutors and they are told to be patient; it will only be "a little while longer (6:11). Then if we jump forward to the 144,000 of (Rev 14) we see them singing, just like the saints of (5:8), because “the hour of His judgement has come” (14:7) Not the final judgement, at the end of time, but a different one. In verse (14:13) we read “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth” and considering “death will be no more.” (21:4) after the final judgement, this is refering to Christ’s judment of those who murdered His first followers.

If I’ve completely confused you, I apologize.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[COPLAND_3]

I always go to the Fathers and Doctors of the Church for everything that is not written in stone by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Nicolas of Lyra, in his commentary on Revelation understood the prayers of the saints to come from the Church militant; and second in the Church triumphant. I accept that answer, since Nicolas understands a dual meaning of the Church on earth and the Church in Heaven.

Many seem to understand that it refers to just the saints on earth. Oecumenius saw a connection between Rev. 5:8 and Malachi 1:11, as did St. Irenaeus, though Irenaeus understood a Eucharisitic meaning behind it. Here is Oecumenius…

The incense symbolizes the offering of all the nations, for Malachi, speaking in the person of God, says to disobedient Israel, "from the rising of the sun even to the setting my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice;(Mal. 1:11) predicting by these words the faith of the nations and their bringing of gifts. [Oecumenius Commentary on Revelation]

Others such as St. Andrew, Primasius, Tyconius, Origen, etc understood it to refer to the saints on earth, or at least they never mention a dual meaning.