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brb3
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Have these three prophesies been fulfilled yet ? Catholics have the historical proof & would say YES !
Rev. 7:1-7 [on the 144,000 sealing] & Rev. 14:19-20 [on God's wrath bringing about 'bridle-deep' blood for 200 miles] & Rev. 16:21 [ on raining of 100
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brb3
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ttt … 
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PaulDupre
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For the sake of clarity:
The “blood” in verse 20 is the blood of the grapes from verse 19. Grape juice and wine are often described in ancient literature (including the bible) as the “blood” of the grape.
See Genesis 49:11 and Deuteronomy 32:14 for example.
The passage in Revelation says that the grapes will be put into the wine press and the “blood” from the grapes will flow bridle-deep. To my mind, that is a description of tremendous prosperity.
The “blood” in verse 20 is the blood of the grapes from verse 19. Grape juice and wine are often described in ancient literature (including the bible) as the “blood” of the grape.
See Genesis 49:11 and Deuteronomy 32:14 for example.
The passage in Revelation says that the grapes will be put into the wine press and the “blood” from the grapes will flow bridle-deep. To my mind, that is a description of tremendous prosperity.
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SyCarl
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I don’t think that this refers to tremendous prosperity.
It is the wine press of the wrath of God from which the blood comes. This would seem to be dealing then with those who will be condemned.
I think this is a fairly clear reference to Isaiah 63:1-3 which talks of the vengeance of God.
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Eutychus123
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I am waiting for the Apologists to answer my question about whether the Book of Revelation is historical, or a prophecy of future events. Anyone care to supply an answer?
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brb3
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Sorry, but I’m gonna be away from keyboard for next 2 days. I’ll let others give you their take. On Monday I can take up the topic again if matters are still unanswered.
Let me just say to an earlier question : its not the wine of grapes … but the blood of the Jews.
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PaulDupre
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I’d be interested to read how you arrived at this anti-semetic conclusion.
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brb3
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Rev. 14:19-20 “And the angel swung his sickle to the earth, and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance fo two hundred miles.”
The Jewish historian Josephus speaks to the matter in his JEWISH WARS, [Chp. 3-6].
" But as many of these were repulsed when they were getting ashore as were killed by the darts upon the lake; and the Romans leaped out of their vessels, and destroyed a great many more upon the land: one might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped. And a terrrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled …
At which fight, hand to hand, fifteen thousand of them were slain, while the number of those that were unwillingly forced to leap into Jordan was prodigious. There were besides, two thousand and two hundred taken prisioners … Now this destruction that fell upon the Jews, as it was not inferior to any of the rest in itself, so did it still appear greater than it really was; and this, because not only the whole of the country through which they had fled was filled with slaughter, and Jordan could not be passed over, by reason of the dead bodies that were in it, but because the lake Asphaltitis was also full of dead bodies, that were carried down into it by the river…
In Jerusalem the dead obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood to such a degree indeed that the fire of many of the houses was quenches with these men’s blood.
Would you consider Josephus anti-semitic ?
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brb3
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It was prophetic when writen by John in 67-68 AD. Was fulfilled in large part in 70 AD, and from our perspective is largely historical.
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ryanoneil
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Don’t forget the parable of (Mt 13:24-30). The wise farmer chose to harvest the entire field at the end of the season, weeds and all. At that time, the reapers gathered the weeds for destruction and the wheat into the safety of the farmer’s barns.
Moving to Rev 14, notice the first harvest by Christ in v14-16 is of the elect and the next harvest is of the grapes of wrath v19. Earlier the 144,000 were called the “first fruits of God and the Lamb” (14:4). This means they were the first souls harvested from this world to the honor of God and the Lamb. They were ransomed from the earth v3 and were unblemished v5 (which is a term used to describe an appropriate sacrifice).
As we saw in Jesus’ parable at the top, the process that gathers the good souls at the same time discards and destroys those who have rejected God. Salvation and Judgment are flip sides of the same coin.
Moving to Rev 14, notice the first harvest by Christ in v14-16 is of the elect and the next harvest is of the grapes of wrath v19. Earlier the 144,000 were called the “first fruits of God and the Lamb” (14:4). This means they were the first souls harvested from this world to the honor of God and the Lamb. They were ransomed from the earth v3 and were unblemished v5 (which is a term used to describe an appropriate sacrifice).
As we saw in Jesus’ parable at the top, the process that gathers the good souls at the same time discards and destroys those who have rejected God. Salvation and Judgment are flip sides of the same coin.
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Dokimas
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No they have not.
The 144,000 are Jewish eunichs that will evangelize in the future.
The others are future as well.
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John7
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The underlined…where does Bible say the 144,000 will evangelize anyone…just wondering, they’re only mentioned in ch 7and 14. 14:6-7 there is an angel evangelizing.
and also not to nitpick but
actually, there are a number of tribes spoken of besides Judah
(12 minus Dan and Ephraim)
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brb3
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Jewish eunichs ! Perhaps our celibate Catholic Priests might fit your formula ?
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Dokimas
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Are there 144,000 priests? Are they from the tribes of Israel mentioned below? Are they Jewish?
Rev 7:
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty–four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Rev 14:
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty–four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.
3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty–four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
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brb3
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Certainly ! Yes, ordained decendents of the original 12 Jewish apostles.
But, you do know that the 144,000 represent the Jewish Christians who left Jerusalem for Pella, before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD ?
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Dokimas
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The 144,000 of Rev 7 & 14 are those that are from before 70AD?
You don’t understand Revelation as prophetic of a time to come?
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brb3
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Yes, John wrote in 67-68 AD … and within 2-3 years it came to pass. Prophesy that has come true
We are now in the Kingdom of God … its the Church my friend !Did not Paul need to leave his Judiasm ? Did not Paul teach the Church was the final Revelation of Christ to the Jews ? Did not Christ chose 12 Jewish apostles … and start his New Covenant with the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles. …:yup:
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Dokimas
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Are you sure Revelation wasn’t written toward the end of the first century AD?Yes, John wrote in 67-68 AD … and within 2-3 years it came to pass. Prophesy that has come true
Did not Paul need to leave his Judiasm ? Did not Paul teach the Church was the final Revelation of Christ to the Jews ? Did not Christ chose 12 Jewish apostles … and start his New Covenant with the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles. …:yup:
Paul did not leave Judaism.
I don’t understand your meaning about the church being the final revelation of Jesus to the Jews.
The original disciples were Jewish and Jesus first came to Israel.
I’m not following why you are telling me this or asking these questions. I’m sure you’re trying to lead me to a point. I think I’m ready for your point.
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brb3
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Recent re-examination of the date of Rev. … overwhelmingly supports an early date, as opposed to 95-96 AD you were taught.
In a way yes ! He left his Pharisee zealotry for Christianity [true Jew by faith, not birthrite]. Paul was renamed, he became the great Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul appealled to his Gentile citizenship … when falsely accused by the Jewish leadership.
Jewish nationals must come to God via the Messiah … which Jesus taught them. There is no ‘special track/dispensation’ for the Jews,apart from the Church … since Calvary and the revelation of the New Covenant.
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FaithJoy
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There is a lot in revelations that the Jews already witnessed. I believe John was giving us record of what happened in his day and to tell us that history will repeat itself in many ways. I think John’s main idea in revelations is that history WILL repeat itself,not exactly to what John saw, but similar. I gather this from Rev. 17:8… The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.
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