Rev. Billy Graham, Mother's Day, and The Virgin Mary

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Really, this is no surprise at all. What would you expect from him? Many non Catholics will accept the divinity of Christ, but have some sort of mental hurdle about the Theotokos.
 
Sword_Brethren said:
I saw this in the newspaper on the 7th. There is no mention of the greatest mother of all, Mary the Mother of God.
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The person responsible for starting Mother’s Day (Anna Jarvis) was very specific in terms of what she wanted, especially in terms of where the apostrophe should go. Her intent was to create a day on which each person would celebrate and honor their own mothers, as indicated by the singular possessive placement in “Mother’s.” The original intent was not for a “Mothers’ Day” in which everyone would honor all mothers in general…and, presumably, rank them in the order by which they are worthy of greater or lesser honor.

The way it played out in various countries wasn’t always according to Jarvis’ game plan, though. She was disappointed by the way it was commercialized in the US within a fairly short period of time. Not that there’s anything wrong with store-bought cards and overpriced gifts, but that wasn’t the initial reason for the day.

In some predominantly Muslim countries, Mother’s Day caught on to a certain extent, but it also became a day of special honor for the daughter of the prophet Mohammed. (And the date would then fall on her birthday as well). Of course, there’s nothing wrong with borrowing a holiday that originates somewhere outside your religion and doing something different with it; the Catholic Church has done that throughout history with most major holidays. In this example, however, they will at least change the date so it makes more sense for what they’re doing.

In some predominantly Orthodox countries…well, just one that I know of really, and that’s Greece. In any event, they borrow the idea and change the date to Feb. 2, which has something to do with Mary and the traditional date associated with the presentation of Jesus at the Temple. Again, nothing wrong with that, and it’s nice that the date is changed in a way that makes sense for how it’s being used.

And in some Catholic countries, it’s changed to a different date that’s more specific to the Virgin Mary. I really don’t know exactly what day that is; I think it’s associated with the date on which you believe she was assumed into heaven. Would you happen to know the date on that? I don’t believe the Assumption happened in the first place, so I lack the motivation to find out exactly when that would be. I think it’s supposed to be 10 days after the Transfiguration, though.

At any rate, Mary was the mother of the perfect and sinless Son of God. We obviously disagree on whether or not Mary was sinless herself, but either way, any mothering advice on how to raise the Messiah is limited in how well it can transfer to the task of raising a mere mortal. But now that I think about it, Mary was a sinful human being like the woman asking for advice…and she also gave birth to a good-sized number of children after Jesus, and none of them was the Messiah…perhaps you have a point after all, maybe it would have been a good idea to make these comparisons. 😃

I’m obviously just messing with you at this point; I am well aware of the differences that exist between us on this topic. If I can get back to being serious for a moment, though, we are very limited in the information that we have on Mary and what she did as a mother- whether it was with Jesus or with her other children whose existence is disputed by you. So any specific advice on the order of “This is what Mary did; here’s what you should do” is in short supply.

And one other thing should be fairly clear to you as you read through my reply: You won’t necessarily like it too much when Protestants start talking about Mary. Perhaps he avoided the topic entirely because he actually likes Catholics pretty well and he doesn’t want to do something that will unnecessarily set you off. You are pretty touchy about these things, you know. Look at how you’re acting right now- and he didn’t say anything! That’s what you’re upset about? The only thing he’s guilty of is a (perceived) sin of omission. Can you imagine how angry you’d be if he actually said something? He’s not Catholic; do you honestly think there’s a whole lot of things he could have said that wouldn’t bother you?

At any rate, the original intent of Mother’s Day was for you to honor your own mother on this day. It wasn’t supposed to be Mothers’ Day, and it wasn’t supposed to have anything to do with Mary or with Mohammed’s daughter or with a certain Bolivian battle in which women participated. It has been borrowed in this way, but the dates have always been changed in ways that make sense.

So if you happen to know the date on which Mary was supposedly assumed into heaven, you can celebrate her on that day. Or maybe you’ll find that joining your Orthodox brethren on Groundhog Day is more satisfying than spending time on a woodland creature and a rather silly superstition. Then you can talk about how Protestants ignore these celebrations and are largely unaware of their existence, or if they are, they generally don’t know what day it’s on. That should take care of it.

On Mother’s Day, though, please try to keep the focus on your own mother in keeping with the original intent of the holiday. If you really must set aside a day for Mary, there are at least two days for that. I don’t know exactly what the date is for Virgin Mary Day, but it’s not Mother’s Day. Nor is Mother’s Day a church holiday, so you shouldn’t really expect it to be all about Catholicism. Or about Catholicism at all. In fact, it should not be a day on which Protestants and Catholics are any more likely to talk about our divergent Marian points-of-view. Ideally, it is not that kind of day.
 
Cooterein… It was an article asking for advice on how to be a good mother…should we not look to the greatest mother of all? Billy Graham sees fit to bring up Timothy’s mother but absolutely no mention of Mary? This is not just a “Catholic” issue…Mary is in the bible…she was faithful to her child to the end…even when others ran away. Now I have lots of respect for Mr. Graham…but he sure missed the mark in this column…IMHO
 
Anna Belle Marie…did you ever like Billy Graham?

My Irish grandmother was on the conservative side in the Church, but she really liked him. We would watch him on TV when staying over night with her…he helps people separate from everything around them and brings them to face God…pure soul that he was…

But when I read this paper, it does make me feel sad he doesn’t know Mary…and I remember the time when visiting John Paul II, he was going to speak to him of the Bible, akin to President Bill Clinton, who gave the pope a bible.
 
KathleenGee said:
Anna Belle Marie…did you ever like Billy Graham?

My Irish grandmother was on the conservative side in the Church, but she really liked him. We would watch him on TV when staying over night with her…he helps people separate from everything around them and brings them to face God…pure soul that he was…

But when I read this paper, it does make me feel sad he doesn’t know Mary…and I remember the time when visiting John Paul II, he was going to speak to him of the Bible, akin to President Bill Clinton, who gave the pope a bible.
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I do like Billy Graham…I think he was a good man…and definetly had a heart for God. It seems to be all about Christ with him and not about himself…something I could really respect. The fact that he would recognize Timothy’s mother and not Mary…Jesus’s mother…seems sad to me.
 
Hi,
This is not posted to anyone in particular, but just as a comment.

Billy Grahm has done a great deal of good by introducting people to Jesus and asking them to make a commit to him. People have changed and turned around their lives because of him. A truely great man and a great christian. And he has not been afraid
to speak the truth when it counts. And I’m sure even Mary wishes him a happy mother’s day.
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Cooterein… It was an article asking for advice on how to be a good mother…should we not look to the greatest mother of all?
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There’s a number of reasons why it doesn’t necessarily make sense to go there. One, we agree on few things Marian but the main one is that she was the mother of the Messiah. The woman asking for advice is not the mother of anyone like the Messiah; she is the mother of someone more like Timothy. Two, assuming this was a personal response from Billy Graham, he’s become extremely familiar with Catholicism over the years and he genuinely likes you guys. He’s one of the strongest proponents of ecumenism and friendship between Evangelicals and Catholics in all of history, and you could make a good argument for dropping the words “one of” from the first part of this sentence. Knowing what he knows and being who he is, he may have considered the option and decided that it would be better to remain silent than to cause offense. Again, there’s not much that he could have said on the matter that would not cause offense.
Billy Graham sees fit to bring up Timothy’s mother but absolutely no mention of Mary?
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Possibly more applicable; possibly less cause for offense. When Protestants raise the topic of Mary on their own, how often is it that you really like it? You’re asking for it in an instance where no mention is made, but when’s the last time you were really happy that a Protestant was saying something about Mary?

Here, I’ll get you started. “There was this one time when I really liked…”
This is not just a “Catholic” issue…Mary is in the bible…
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This is true. She is in the gospels. And in none of the epistles. And there’s a disputed reference in Revelation concerning a heavenly apparition. Someone like me would state that there are limited references to her in the gospels and nowhere else.

There are a lot of other people in the Bible, too. Sometimes it’s appropriate to make reference to people outside of Jesus’ immediate family.
she was faithful to her child to the end…even when others ran away. Now I have lots of respect for Mr. Graham…but he sure missed the mark in this column…IMHO
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He is on record saying “We evangelical Christians do not give Mary her proper due.” Perhaps this was a missed opportunity. He may have considered giving Mary a shout-out and decided not to for either of the aforementioned reasons. Or maybe he went with the example of Timothy’s mother by force of habit and because it’s fairly common for western non-Catholics to mention her at times like this. She’s biblical too, you know, and there’s certain people from Scripture that only come up on very specific kinds of occasions. Timothy’s mom’s name was Lois and his grandmother was Eunice, but I still have a hard time remembering those names- I had to look them up just now. I think it’s good that some people make a point of bringing them up when given the opportunity. It’s been quite a few months since I’ve had those names in front of me or that the topic’s been brought up at all.

He had an opportunity to do something with Mary, but it would have been tricky for someone in his very specific kind of situation. What he went with was appropriate and applicable, though, and I definitely don’t mind hearing something about Timothy’s maternal family. Or refreshing my memory on the names of those women. Protestants do not view Mary as the mother of all Christianity or of all Christians in the same way that you do. Our mariologies are pretty different, and that means there’s less motivation for someone like Rev. Graham to go there. It also carries tremendous opportunity for offense.

Plus, in a brief letter of advice to a mother, perhaps he decided it would be overly complicated if he included a caveat from Scripture that carried some kind of “ology” with it. Timothy’s mother has no “ology.” She works as a caveat. You don’t have to parse your meanings or support a certain position on her. She’s not controversial, and I assume Rev. Graham makes a habit of avoiding unnecessary controversy as he corresponds with people he doesn’t know at all. Granted, there would be no controversy if he were a Catholic priest writing to a Catholic mother. But he’s not a Catholic priest, and this isn’t a Catholic mom. You shouldn’t expect him to do what a Catholic would instinctively do. For who he is and the kind of situation this is, it makes a good deal of sense for him to go this route.

I’m sure Mary was a great mother, and she was the mother of the greatest person of all time. I don’t know that I would definitively crown her as the greatest mother of all time, though. Another difference in our perspective is this: We agree that Mary was uniquely chosen for an intimidating role in God’s salvation plan, but I think Catholics would be more inclined to believe no one but Mary could have done it…while Protestants are more inclined to believe God chose a sinful and flawed human being who was exceptional but still very lucky to be chosen. Perhaps Timothy’s mother could have done an excellent job in that same role. I wouldn’t claim that with absolute certainty, but we are more open to the possibility.

While Jesus certainly deserves more honor and glory and praise than any other person in history, we don’t necessarily extend that to Mary in the sense that she deserves primacy among all women or that she deserves more honor and glory and praise than all other women. She is blessed, but we don’t equate “blessed” with all that.
 
T_More said:
Really, this is no surprise at all. What would you expect from him? Many non Catholics will accept the divinity of Christ, but have some sort of mental hurdle about the Theotokos.
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Why do we think that in a short answer like this it was absolutely necessary for Billy Graham to mention Mary? That he didn’t doesn’t show any lack of respect for her at all. We can read way too much into this column and be overly critical when it isn’t justified in this case. I’ve listened to Billy Graham for years, and I know there are times when he has spoken of Mary. We don’t need to judge Billy Graham’s respect for Mary based on one column written long ago in a daily newspaper.
 
cooterhein said:
The person responsible for starting Mother’s Day (Anna Jarvis) was very specific in terms of what she wanted, especially in terms of where the apostrophe should go. Her intent was to create a day on which each person would celebrate and honor their own mothers, as indicated by the singular possessive placement in “Mother’s.” The original intent was not for a “Mothers’ Day” in which everyone would honor all mothers in general…and, presumably, rank them in the order by which they are worthy of greater or lesser honor.

The way it played out in various countries wasn’t always according to Jarvis’ game plan, though. She was disappointed by the way it was commercialized in the US within a fairly short period of time. Not that there’s anything wrong with store-bought cards and overpriced gifts, but that wasn’t the initial reason for the day.

In some predominantly Muslim countries, Mother’s Day caught on to a certain extent, but it also became a day of special honor for the daughter of the prophet Mohammed. (And the date would then fall on her birthday as well). Of course, there’s nothing wrong with borrowing a holiday that originates somewhere outside your religion and doing something different with it; the Catholic Church has done that throughout history with most major holidays. In this example, however, they will at least change the date so it makes more sense for what they’re doing.

In some predominantly Orthodox countries…well, just one that I know of really, and that’s Greece. In any event, they borrow the idea and change the date to Feb. 2, which has something to do with Mary and the traditional date associated with the presentation of Jesus at the Temple. Again, nothing wrong with that, and it’s nice that the date is changed in a way that makes sense for how it’s being used.

And in some Catholic countries, it’s changed to a different date that’s more specific to the Virgin Mary. I really don’t know exactly what day that is; I think it’s associated with the date on which you believe she was assumed into heaven. Would you happen to know the date on that? I don’t believe the Assumption happened in the first place, so I lack the motivation to find out exactly when that would be. I think it’s supposed to be 10 days after the Transfiguration, though.

At any rate, Mary was the mother of the perfect and sinless Son of God. We obviously disagree on whether or not Mary was sinless herself, but either way, any mothering advice on how to raise the Messiah is limited in how well it can transfer to the task of raising a mere mortal. But now that I think about it, Mary was a sinful human being like the woman asking for advice…and she also gave birth to a good-sized number of children after Jesus, and none of them was the Messiah…perhaps you have a point after all, maybe it would have been a good idea to make these comparisons. 😃

I’m obviously just messing with you at this point; I am well aware of the differences that exist between us on this topic. If I can get back to being serious for a moment, though, we are very limited in the information that we have on Mary and what she did as a mother- whether it was with Jesus or with her other children whose existence is disputed by you. So any specific advice on the order of “This is what Mary did; here’s what you should do” is in short supply.

And one other thing should be fairly clear to you as you read through my reply: You won’t necessarily like it too much when Protestants start talking about Mary. Perhaps he avoided the topic entirely because he actually likes Catholics pretty well and he doesn’t want to do something that will unnecessarily set you off. You are pretty touchy about these things, you know. Look at how you’re acting right now- and he didn’t say anything! That’s what you’re upset about? The only thing he’s guilty of is a (perceived) sin of omission. Can you imagine how angry you’d be if he actually said something? He’s not Catholic; do you honestly think there’s a whole lot of things he could have said that wouldn’t bother you?

At any rate, the original intent of Mother’s Day was for you to honor your own mother on this day. It wasn’t supposed to be Mothers’ Day, and it wasn’t supposed to have anything to do with Mary or with Mohammed’s daughter or with a certain Bolivian battle in which women participated. It has been borrowed in this way, but the dates have always been changed in ways that make sense.

So if you happen to know the date on which Mary was supposedly assumed into heaven, you can celebrate her on that day. Or maybe you’ll find that joining your Orthodox brethren on Groundhog Day is more satisfying than spending time on a woodland creature and a rather silly superstition. Then you can talk about how Protestants ignore these celebrations and are largely unaware of their existence, or if they are, they generally don’t know what day it’s on. That should take care of it.

On Mother’s Day, though, please try to keep the focus on your own mother in keeping with the original intent of the holiday. If you really must set aside a day for Mary, there are at least two days for that. I don’t know exactly what the date is for Virgin Mary Day, but it’s not Mother’s Day. Nor is Mother’s Day a church holiday, so you shouldn’t really expect it to be all about Catholicism. Or about Catholicism at all. In fact, it should not be a day on which Protestants and Catholics are any more likely to talk about our divergent Marian points-of-view. Ideally, it is not that kind of day.
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You´re a regular member with about 500 posts and non-catholic. I like that. I like your post also. Whether you believe the Mary thing or not is unimportant to me. I believe and that´s all I care about. That honoring my Mother, has a lot to do with the definition of what honor means in that context.
 
And as a side note, Billy Graham has an honorary degree from Belmont Abbey College.
 
cooterhein said:
There’s a number of reasons why it doesn’t necessarily make sense to go there. One, we agree on few things Marian but the main one is that she was the mother of the Messiah. The woman asking for advice is not the mother of anyone like the Messiah; she is the mother of someone more like Timothy. Two, assuming this was a personal response from Billy Graham, he’s become extremely familiar with Catholicism over the years and he genuinely likes you guys. He’s one of the strongest proponents of ecumenism and friendship between Evangelicals and Catholics in all of history, and you could make a good argument for dropping the words “one of” from the first part of this sentence. Knowing what he knows and being who he is, he may have considered the option and decided that it would be better to remain silent than to cause offense. Again, there’s not much that he could have said on the matter that would not cause offense.

Possibly more applicable; possibly less cause for offense. When Protestants raise the topic of Mary on their own, how often is it that you really like it? You’re asking for it in an instance where no mention is made, but when’s the last time you were really happy that a Protestant was saying something about Mary?

Here, I’ll get you started. “There was this one time when I really liked…”

This is true. She is in the gospels. And in none of the epistles. And there’s a disputed reference in Revelation concerning a heavenly apparition. Someone like me would state that there are limited references to her in the gospels and nowhere else.

There are a lot of other people in the Bible, too. Sometimes it’s appropriate to make reference to people outside of Jesus’ immediate family.

He is on record saying “We evangelical Christians do not give Mary her proper due.” Perhaps this was a missed opportunity. He may have considered giving Mary a shout-out and decided not to for either of the aforementioned reasons. Or maybe he went with the example of Timothy’s mother by force of habit and because it’s fairly common for western non-Catholics to mention her at times like this. She’s biblical too, you know, and there’s certain people from Scripture that only come up on very specific kinds of occasions. Timothy’s mom’s name was Lois and his grandmother was Eunice, but I still have a hard time remembering those names- I had to look them up just now. I think it’s good that some people make a point of bringing them up when given the opportunity. It’s been quite a few months since I’ve had those names in front of me or that the topic’s been brought up at all.

He had an opportunity to do something with Mary, but it would have been tricky for someone in his very specific kind of situation. What he went with was appropriate and applicable, though, and I definitely don’t mind hearing something about Timothy’s maternal family. Or refreshing my memory on the names of those women. Protestants do not view Mary as the mother of all Christianity or of all Christians in the same way that you do. Our mariologies are pretty different, and that means there’s less motivation for someone like Rev. Graham to go there. It also carries tremendous opportunity for offense.

Plus, in a brief letter of advice to a mother, perhaps he decided it would be overly complicated if he included a caveat from Scripture that carried some kind of “ology” with it. Timothy’s mother has no “ology.” She works as a caveat. You don’t have to parse your meanings or support a certain position on her. She’s not controversial, and I assume Rev. Graham makes a habit of avoiding unnecessary controversy as he corresponds with people he doesn’t know at all. Granted, there would be no controversy if he were a Catholic priest writing to a Catholic mother. But he’s not a Catholic priest, and this isn’t a Catholic mom. You shouldn’t expect him to do what a Catholic would instinctively do. For who he is and the kind of situation this is, it makes a good deal of sense for him to go this route.

I’m sure Mary was a great mother, and she was the mother of the greatest person of all time. I don’t know that I would definitively crown her as the greatest mother of all time, though. Another difference in our perspective is this: We agree that Mary was uniquely chosen for an intimidating role in God’s salvation plan, but I think Catholics would be more inclined to believe no one but Mary could have done it…while Protestants are more inclined to believe God chose a sinful and flawed human being who was exceptional but still very lucky to be chosen. Perhaps Timothy’s mother could have done an excellent job in that same role. I wouldn’t claim that with absolute certainty, but we are more open to the possibility.

While Jesus certainly deserves more honor and glory and praise than any other person in history, we don’t necessarily extend that to Mary in the sense that she deserves primacy among all women or that she deserves more honor and glory and praise than all other women. She is blessed, but we don’t equate “blessed” with all that.
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Boy…you like to be a little wordy…don’t you? I think you missed my point entirely. You went on and on about the origin of Mother’s Day and how us Catholics can honor Mary on some other day…

That is not what the article was about…it wasn’t really about how to celebrate Mother’s Day…it was advide on how to be a good mother. Billy Graham does mention Mother’s day but that is not the text of what he is say. And I was just responding that as well versed as he is in his bible…he should know Mary was a good mother…he doesn’t need to go into all the rest. I barely know anything about Timothy’s mom… I just think he missed the mark…that’s all.

BTW…I’m fully aware of what Protestants believe regarding Mary…I was one for 22 years…until about a year ago…
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Boy…you like to be a little wordy…don’t you? I think you missed my point entirely. You went on and on about the origin of Mother’s Day and how us Catholics can honor Mary on some other day…

That is not what the article was about…it wasn’t really about how to celebrate Mother’s Day…it was advide on how to be a good mother. Billy Graham does mention Mother’s day but that is not the text of what he is say. And I was just responding that as well versed as he is in his bible…he should know Mary was a good mother…he doesn’t need to go into all the rest. I barely know anything about Timothy’s mom… I just think he missed the mark…that’s all.

BTW…I’m fully aware of what Protestants believe regarding Mary…I was one for 22 years…until about a year ago…
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While it is common sense that Mary was a good mother, what scripture passage would you have used comparable to the one that Billy Graham used to demonstrate what Mary did to teach Jesus to have faith?
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Boy…you like to be a little wordy…don’t you? I think you missed my point entirely. You went on and on about the origin of Mother’s Day and how us Catholics can honor Mary on some other day…

That is not what the article was about…it wasn’t really about how to celebrate Mother’s Day…it was advide on how to be a good mother. Billy Graham does mention Mother’s day but that is not the text of what he is say. And I was just responding that as well versed as he is in his bible…he should know Mary was a good mother…he doesn’t need to go into all the rest. I barely know anything about Timothy’s mom… I just think he missed the mark…that’s all.

BTW…I’m fully aware of what Protestants believe regarding Mary…I was one for 22 years…until about a year ago…
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What Biblical quotation would you have used to show that Mary taught Jesus to follow Jesus?
 
christianley said:
What Biblical quotation would you have used to show that Mary taught Jesus to follow Jesus?
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Why would any one have to teach Jesus that…:confused:
But scripture has Mary telling others “do as He says” She didn’t put up with Jesus’s “protest” she didn’t say another word to Christ instead she instructed others to do what He tells you to do.
 
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