Revelation 12

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myfavoritmartin said:
If Mary is the woman mentioned in Revelation 12: and if she was without sin, why is she having labor pains?
How does that square with Genesis 3:14-16, where labor pains were a curse from God because of sin?
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In Luke 2:34-35 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.

Labor pains could also mean the prophecy of Simeon that Mary will have her soul pierce. This was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified.

The Catholic Church is silent whether or not Mary gave labor pains or not. Though there are ECF who claim she didn’t give labor pains.

There is no official doctrine that I know of that Mary suffered labor pains during Jesus’ birth. I think she did give labor pains.

Jesus himself was in pain when he was crucified, and he is sinless.
 
mikeledes said:
The labor pains symbolize the suffering endured as a result of being the Mother of the Messiah (the killing of the innocents by Herod, the flight into Egypt, watching her Son die on the Cross, etc.)

God Bless,
Michael
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Mike your symbolic literalness perplexes me?:confused:
 
myfavoritmartin said:
If Mary is the woman mentioned in Revelation 12: and if she was without sin, why is she having labor pains?
How does that square with Genesis 3:14-16, where labor pains were a curse from God because of sin?
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The line in Genesis does not indicate that childbirth was completely painless before the fall. That line says “*increase *your pain,” indicating that pain in childbirth was part of the process. The Church does not take an official stand on whether Mary experienced labor pains in giving birth to Jesus, although it is not against Church teaching to believe that she did not.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
In Luke 2:34-35 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.

Labor pains could also mean the prophecy of Simeon that Mary will have her soul pierce. This was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified.

The Catholic Church is silent whether or not Mary gave labor pains or not. Though there are ECF who claim she didn’t give labor pains.

There is no official doctrine that I know of that Mary suffered labor pains during Jesus’ birth. I think she did give labor pains.

Jesus himself was in pain when he was crucified, and he is sinless.
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In trying to understand your POV peircing her soul is a symbol of what?
To me it meant when he died she questioned whether he was the messiah, you?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Mike your symbolic literalness perplexes me?:confused:
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Obviously Mary did not give birth to Jesus in heaven nor was he taken to heaven right after He was born. Revelation uses a lot of complex symbolism that can express more than one literal truth.

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
Holy Mother Church and Holy Mother of God. You’ve been hanging out on this website for too long. You should know better. :tsktsk:
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No wonder I dont remember. I don’t subscribe to that POV;)
 
Mannyfit75 said:
He is right. I also believe it is the Church. It’s the Church, Israel and Mary.
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Exactly! 👍

Mary is Holy Israel…archtype of the faithful of the old covenant

Mary is Mother of God…as only she “gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod” (Rev 12:5)

Mary is Holy Church, as she was always and forever the “handmaid of the Lord”…archtype of the faithful of the new covenant of Jesus Christ.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
In trying to understand your POV peircing her soul is a symbol of what?
To me it meant when he died she questioned whether he was the messiah, you?
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So an angel appears to her telling her she will be the mother of the Messiah, she goes through a VIRGIN BIRTH, she witnessed the miracle in Cana, and probably heard of raising Lazarus from the dead. You think she would doubt that Jesus is the Messiah?

God Bless,
Michael
 
When you read the book of Genesis, God said to Eve I will increase your labor pains. That implies to me that there was or would have been labor pains. Sin increased those pains.THe Bible in my reading and understanding never stated that childbirth would have or could have been pain free. But then again pain is a result if sin,:confused: If there has been no sin, there would have been no pain. So what did God mean when he said he would intensify those pains? He told her this before the childbearing began.
 
mikeledes said:
So an angel appears to her telling her she will be the mother of the Messiah, she goes through a VIRGIN BIRTH, she witnessed the miracle in Cana, and probably heard of raising Lazarus from the dead. You think she would doubt that Jesus is the Messiah?

God Bless,
Michael
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Mike what is the Catholic interpretation?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
In trying to understand your POV peircing her soul is a symbol of what?
To me it meant when he died she questioned whether he was the messiah, you?
Click to expand...
“Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.” -Luke 2:34-35

Jesus after his resurrection caused the fall of Israel by the Romans. So that prophecy is fulfilled. When Jesus died, his mother would feel sadden and will feel the pains of losing someone she loved, who is her son, Jesus. I don’t think she questioned who Jesus is the Messiah. I think she know. Remember in the Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.”

Since this isn’t about the Gospel of Luke, we should focus on Revelations 12. 😉
 
myfavoritmartin said:
In trying to understand your POV peircing her soul is a symbol of what?
To me it meant when he died she questioned whether he was the messiah, you?
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Most of us would probably say that the many suffering(s) Our Lady endured in life as the first, constant, faithful disciple of her son constitute “soul piercings.”

I have never heard the speculation that she questioned whether he was the messiah (after all, she believed the angel on the first round). Can you connect the dots on that one for us?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Mike what is the Catholic interpretation?
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I got to go. The Catholic interpretation is that the sword represents the sorrow the Virgin Mary would endure, NOT that she doubted her son was the Messiah.

God Bless,
michael
 
joshua1 said:
When you read the book of Genesis, God said to Eve I will increase your labor pains. That implies to me that there was or would have been labor pains. Sin increased those pains.THe Bible in my reading and understanding never stated that childbirth would have or could have been pain free.
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. Pope Alexander III said: “Mary conceived without detriment to her virginity, gave birth to her Son without pain, and departed hence without being subject to corruption.”
 
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