Revelation 12

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many Protestant bible teaches explain that the woman in
REV 12 refers to the nation of Israel as a people.
The most common supporting argument is the parallel in Genesis of Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37:9-11
The woman in Rev 12 is Isreal the nation, however Mary was part of the nation if Isreal. So in a way both interpertation are correct.
 
many Protestant bible teaches explain that the woman in
REV 12 refers to the nation of Israel as a people.
The most common supporting argument is the parallel in Genesis of Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37:9-11
The woman in Rev 12 is Isreal the nation, however Mary was part of the nation if Isreal. So in a way both interpertation are correct.
Actually that passage has multiple meanings and fulfillments so that all of us may well be right…but here again, it’s not either/or it’s both/and.
 
And you know she didn’t huh!
I know of a man called James the brother of Jesus.
Luke 8:19-21 also supports this
Then why is it that nobody until the Reformation rejected Mary’s perpetual virginity? The truth is that the word “brother” has many meanings outside of “blood brother.” Here are some examples:
  • Abraham and Lot are referred to as “brothers” – yet they are uncle and nephew (Genesis 11:26-28, Genesis 14:14)
  • Jacob and Laban are referred to as “brothers” – yet they are also uncle and nephew (Genesis 29:15)
  • The Children of Kish and Eleazar are referred to as “brothers” – yet they are cousins. (1 Chronicles 23:21-22)
  • 42 “brethren” of King Azariah – yet they are kinsmen (2 Kings 10:13-14)
  • In Deuteronomy 23:7 and Jeremiah 34:9, all Jews are referred to as “brothers” – I don’t need to explain this one.
  • In Matthew 23:8, all who love Christ are referred to as “brothers”
  • In John 20:17-18 and in Matthew 12:49 Christ and His disciples are referred to as “brothers”
Here’s more:
Nonetheless, and despite Tradition, there are four people that some Protestants claim are the blood brothers of Jesus, an idea which comes from Mark 6:3 which says that Jesus is “the brother of James, and Joses, and of Jude and Simon.” But to find out who the real mother of these four are, look at the following:
  • Matthew 27: 55-56 tells us of three women at the Cross: “And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.”
  • Mark 15:40 tells us of the three women there, “There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome.”
  • John 19:25 is the most inclusive, telling us of four women’s presence, “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.” (Note here the reference to Mary’s “sister” who’s named Mary!)
    Putting all these together, we can cross off Joses and James the Less as being Jesus’ blood brothers because their mother is the wife of Cleophas.
We can cross Simon off the list because Mark 3:18 tells us he is a Canaanite, “And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite…”

Jude, we are told in Jude 1:1, is the “servant of Jesus Christ and the brother of James.”

Crossing just one name off the list is enough to prove the point that the Hebrew word “brother” means many things (just as the word does in English today, my “brother or sister in Christ!”) and to prove that this is so even in the very particular context of Mark 6:3.
That’s from this article from Fisheaters.
 
I also suggest this article by Jimmy Akin and this one from Catholic Answers, which contains a good deal of ECF’s such as this from St. Augustine:
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (*Holy Virginity *4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (*Sermons *186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (*Heresies *56 [A.D. 428]).
 
I promise salvation to those who embrace it and their souls would be loved by God as the flowers placed by myself adorning His throne." …

You have no issue with her promising salvation?
Now, then, laddy, let me tell you this: I am the descendant of some Baptist preachers. And I have to tell you, they many & many a time, preached sermons where they “promised salvation to all who embraced it”…It is called an altar call, yean, & if my great-great-something grandaddies could say that in a sermon, why can’t the Blessed Virgin Mary do the same thing???
She doesn’t say, you notice, “I will save you even if you murder & rape & torture to your hearts content”. She says, “to those who embrace [salvation]”, & that is as solidly oin Biblical ground as you can get.
Now, I know you don’t like the idea of Marian apparitions. That’s fine; I don’t say you have to believe in them. The Catholic Church doesn’t say you have to; the Catholic Church doesn’t evensay that Catholics have to believe it.
But don’t be going off halfccocked,claiming that this is all some satanic plot, because leading people to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord & Saviour…Well. I don’t think satan is as dumb as that.
But hey. That’s just me.
My simple questions haven’t been given simple answers.
I am requesting people to consider Fatima as it aligns with scripture… Are you okay with it?. As a Catholic most accept because the church okayed it, though it is not required to accept I am wondering what you think. Do all just accept it because the church says its okay?
I dinnae have problems w’ Fatima, laddy. Too many people have come to faith from it, for it to be somehttp://bestsmileys.com/peeping/4.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/scared/1.gif deep dark plot.

:twocents:
 
15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

‘…Lie in wait for her heel…’ Could mean that Satan would lie in wait for the woman and her seed, Jesus Christ, with the intention of destroying them. And, in fact Gods foreknowledge says that it would be the woman’s heel, Satans own destruction, which Satan would experience and not the destruction of the woman and her child.
The woman in this passage is Eve, she is also the new Eve - Mary, she is also the Bride of Christ – the Catholic Church which gives birth to Christ’s Body on earth – His Church. As Mary assented to God’s plan and became the mother of God, His Church - Christ’s infant Church - assents to God’s plan and its issue is Christ’s Body. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. - We are living members in Christ’s living Body borne through His Church.

The line in Genesis has its parallel with the following from the Book of the Apocalypse:
15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
The Serpent waits for the child to be delivered to destroy it but it is the serpent who will be destroyed.
The man-child she brought forth who was to rule all nations with an iron rod, is obviously Christ and the woman who brought Him forth is Mary, the Mother of God – who is seen by St. John in a vision.
The seed of the woman in Genesis is the new Eve, and also the Bride of Christ – the Catholic Church – whose members have Christ in them.
 
I just had a similar thread. I told them the truth about the aparitions all over the world and where they are coming from.
Brother, they cannot see the truth although it is staring them right in the face. I was brutally honest and I was mocked and persecuted. I had 850 posts in three days. the thread was actually split from this thread but I explained myself clearly and gave the best gospel message I could. That is all we can do brother. God bless you for caring for their souls.
It must be wonderful to be outside the Church and know everything about it.

As for Revelation… try not to abuse OUR book so much. All these centuries of postering ideas, and commentary… and all of a sudden a new bee has the final answer.

👍 Hope you have time to average one post each 15-20 minutes 24/7. We can use them to show how easily many are mislead (usually by bad teachers, sometimes by arrogance… sometimes just the plain old tool of the devil… he probably hates the Mother of God more than anyone)
 
Both babylonian exile and moses would be past history.
modern escatology believes the Jews will flee Israel during the first 3 1/2 years of the upcoming tribulation to fulfill this prophecy.
yeh, we have a lot of modern biblical scholars in the Catholic church too… man do they wreck havoc with their “enlightenment” Occasionally one is right about something, and many then beleive they must be always right.

You mentioned the upcoming tribulation… like it was eminent. Are you among those who believe that the current generation is the last generation??

.
 
And you know she didn’t huh!
I know of a man called James the brother of Jesus.
Luke 8:19-21 also supports this
and you haven’t been informed yet that this argument has long been refuted… with Scripture no less.

.
 
Hi, MFM
Code:
        Consider the wedding at cana. What's behind the story? Mary's request to Jesus and His answer; " My hour has not come yet ! Then his mother said do whatever He tells you.
John 2.

Did the request of Mary change the hour of His coming revelation ? If indeed it did, this is powerful evidence of Mary’s intercession on behalf of humanity. A parallel in the old testament may be the intercession of Abraham in Sodom.
Genesis: 18, 16-33.

Peace, OneNow1
 
So you are saying rev12:2 the church bore the Child Jesus.
Jesus the Savior was born from the Catholic church which wasn’t formed till years after the Savior was born. How can this be possible? How can Jesus be born from the Catholic Church?
It is not possible and you know it.
But it is entirely possible that the dragon in12:17 can make war with the believing remnant of the nation of Israel.
In the literal sense, the woman is also Mary. Since she bore Jesus. Jesus was born out of the virgin Mary.
 
1st. The Woman of Revelation being Mary is the simple, literal reading of the text. If Protestant scholars have agreed on one thing it is that we must look for the clear, obvious interpretation of a bible text. Who is the woman who gave birth to Jesus? Jesus’s Mother. Simple.

**2nd **The figures that appear in Revelation 12 are the same as those that appear in the proto-gospel of Genesis. Genesis 3:15. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Satan is both the Serpent of Genesis, and the Dragon of Revelation. Jesus is the “seed” who will crush the serpent in Genesis, and the child who will rule with a rod of iron in Revelation. In both, He and His mother, the Woman, are at permanent enmity with the serpent. The Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the same. However no one suggests that the woman of Genesis 3 is Israel.

3rd Verse 17 of Revelation 12 is a confirmation of Mary’s spiritual motherhood of all Christians. This motherhood is already made implicit through the fact that Christians share in Mary’s motherhood through Jesus, both by being part of Jesus’s body, and brethren of Jesus.

4th. The interpretation of the Woman as Israel is contextually wrong. For all the other figures in this passage represent individuals, not ideas or classes of people. The Child is clearly Jesus, the Dragon is clearly Satan, each star swept out of the sky is one of the rebel angels who followed Satan. Later in the passage, we find Michael and his angels, and also the Beast - the Antichrist. The Woman is the only figure in the passage who, according to some, is not the individual stated in the text, but a collective representation. This biased exegesis must be seen as the ‘anybody but Mary’ defense.

5th. Conversely, when Israel, Christians or the Church appear elsewhere in Revelation, they do not appear as personifications. They appear in literal form, as groups of individuals. See Rev 7.4: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel; Rev 7.9: …a great multitude that no-one could count…; Rev 12.17: …the rest of her offspring - those who obey God’s commandments… Even where the Church appears as the Bride of Christ, and a female personification would be expected, we do not get one. Instead of appearing as a woman, the Church appears as a City - the new Jerusalem. Rev 21: 9-10.

6th. If there is any doubt as to what a symbolic personage in Revelation might represent, or if a veiled meaning is intended, that meaning is immediately explained in the text. The Lamb is defined as the Lord of Lords, the Dragon is Satan. The Heads of the Beast are Kings. However no such explanation is given with respect to the Woman, underlining that the obvious meaning is the one that is intended.

7th. If we look at the reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars in this passage, the Sun, Moon and stars can indeed be taken to represent Israel. BUT in Revelation the Sun, Moon and Stars are not the subjects of the Vision. They instead form the adornments of the woman. This indicates that although the Woman is linked with Israel, she is quite clearly NOT Israel.

8th. The Woman of Revelation 12 is introduced as a great sign in Heaven. Where else in the bible can we see a Woman announced as a great sign. Look at Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” We can see that this is exactly the same sign as in Revelation 12, confirming that the Woman in both occurences is Mary.

9th. Verse 17 shows the Christians, both as Children of the Woman, and as being persecuted. Who was persecuting the Christians after the ressurrection? The Jews! So how can the Woman represent the Jews, when She and her offspring are being persecuted by the Jews?

As far as the Woman “fleeing into the desert”, this is either referring to, the Flight into Egypt from Herod’s assassins, or else to the first persecution of Christians after Stephen’s death, when all Christians had to flee Jerusalem.Not at all. The interpretation of the Woman as Israel is a modern invention, with no ancient attestation whatsoever, and it is at variance with the symbolism of the chapter.

It is possible that there are subsidiary meanings to the figure of the Woman - as there are to some other figures in Revelation. But the obvious primary meaning - that the woman giving birth to Jesus is actually Jesus’s mother - must be accepted. The only reason that some fight so hard against it, is that it conflicts with their deep-seated anti-Mary bias.
 
Furthermore… he warns that it if you denyer of it…

" he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith"
 
The woman can stand for the nation of Israel. One can arrive at this through the clear, obvious interpretation of a Bible text. And using this method of reading, how does one come up with purgatory in 1 Corinthians? (off topic but rhetorical)

How come others have said it’s Mary’s heel that will be bruised and the verse you just pasted here obviously and clearly mentions Jesus’ heel? You are equating Gen. 3 with Rev. 12 because of your own personal interpretation. It could as well be that Eve is a type of “Israel” and the enmity is between satan and the Jews. History has proven this can be the case as the world has always come against Israel but not against “Mary”.👍

Or it could be that it had always been understood that the woman represents Israel? Remember, Revelation was written to people who immediately understood the book.

Because Revelation was written for many reasons. One of them being the future tribulation. Satan will wage war against the saints AND the Jewish people. The Great Tribulation is not known as the time of Jacob’s trouble for no reason.

I would have said more but I only have so much time to get my post up before I get logged out for some reason. 😦
 
1st. The Woman of Revelation being Mary is the simple, literal reading of the text. If Protestant scholars have agreed on one thing it is that we must look for the clear, obvious interpretation of a bible text. Who is the woman who gave birth to Jesus? Jesus’s Mother. Simple.

2nd The figures that appear in Revelation 12 are the same as those that appear in the proto-gospel of Genesis. Genesis 3:15. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Satan is both the Serpent of Genesis, and the Dragon of Revelation. Jesus is the “seed” who will crush the serpent in Genesis, and the child who will rule with a rod of iron in Revelation. In both, He and His mother, the Woman, are at permanent enmity with the serpent. The Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the same. However no one suggests that the woman of Genesis 3 is Israel.

3rd Verse 17 of Revelation 12 is a confirmation of Mary’s spiritual motherhood of all Christians. This motherhood is already made implicit through the fact that Christians share in Mary’s motherhood through Jesus, both by being part of Jesus’s body, and brethren of Jesus.

4th. The interpretation of the Woman as Israel is contextually wrong. For all the other figures in this passage represent individuals, not ideas or classes of people. The Child is clearly Jesus, the Dragon is clearly Satan, each star swept out of the sky is one of the rebel angels who followed Satan. Later in the passage, we find Michael and his angels, and also the Beast - the Antichrist. The Woman is the only figure in the passage who, according to some, is not the individual stated in the text, but a collective representation. This biased exegesis must be seen as the ‘anybody but Mary’ defense.

5th. Conversely, when Israel, Christians or the Church appear elsewhere in Revelation, they do not appear as personifications. They appear in literal form, as groups of individuals. See Rev 7.4: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel; Rev 7.9: …a great multitude that no-one could count…; Rev 12.17: …the rest of her offspring - those who obey God’s commandments… Even where the Church appears as the Bride of Christ, and a female personification would be expected, we do not get one. Instead of appearing as a woman, the Church appears as a City - the new Jerusalem. Rev 21: 9-10.

6th. If there is any doubt as to what a symbolic personage in Revelation might represent, or if a veiled meaning is intended, that meaning is immediately explained in the text. The Lamb is defined as the Lord of Lords, the Dragon is Satan. The Heads of the Beast are Kings. However no such explanation is given with respect to the Woman, underlining that the obvious meaning is the one that is intended.

7th. If we look at the reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars in this passage, the Sun, Moon and stars can indeed be taken to represent Israel. BUT in Revelation the Sun, Moon and Stars are not the subjects of the Vision. They instead form the adornments of the woman. This indicates that although the Woman is linked with Israel, she is quite clearly NOT Israel.

8th. The Woman of Revelation 12 is introduced as a great sign in Heaven. Where else in the bible can we see a Woman announced as a great sign. Look at Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” We can see that this is exactly the same sign as in Revelation 12, confirming that the Woman in both occurences is Mary.

9th. Verse 17 shows the Christians, both as Children of the Woman, and as being persecuted. Who was persecuting the Christians after the ressurrection? The Jews! So how can the Woman represent the Jews, when She and her offspring are being persecuted by the Jews?

As far as the Woman “fleeing into the desert”, this is either referring to, the Flight into Egypt from Herod’s assassins, or else to the first persecution of Christians after Stephen’s death, when all Christians had to flee Jerusalem.Not at all. The interpretation of the Woman as Israel is a modern invention, with no ancient attestation whatsoever, and it is at variance with the symbolism of the chapter

It is possible that there are subsidiary meanings to the figure of the Woman - as there are to some other figures in Revelation. But the obvious primary meaning - that the woman giving birth to Jesus is actually Jesus’s mother - must be accepted. The only reason that some fight so hard against it, is that it conflicts with their deep-seated anti-Mary bias.
 
1st. The Woman of Revelation being Mary is the simple, literal reading of the text. If Protestant scholars have agreed on one thing it is that we must look for the clear, obvious interpretation of a bible text. Who is the woman who gave birth to Jesus? Jesus’s Mother. Simple.

2nd The figures that appear in Revelation 12 are the same as those that appear in the proto-gospel of Genesis. Genesis 3:15. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Satan is both the Serpent of Genesis, and the Dragon of Revelation. Jesus is the “seed” who will crush the serpent in Genesis, and the child who will rule with a rod of iron in Revelation. In both, He and His mother, the Woman, are at permanent enmity with the serpent. The Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the same. However no one suggests that the woman of Genesis 3 is Israel.

3rd Verse 17 of Revelation 12 is a confirmation of Mary’s spiritual motherhood of all Christians. This motherhood is already made implicit through the fact that Christians share in Mary’s motherhood through Jesus, both by being part of Jesus’s body, and brethren of Jesus.

4th. The interpretation of the Woman as Israel is contextually wrong. For all the other figures in this passage represent individuals, not ideas or classes of people. The Child is clearly Jesus, the Dragon is clearly Satan, each star swept out of the sky is one of the rebel angels who followed Satan. Later in the passage, we find Michael and his angels, and also the Beast - the Antichrist. The Woman is the only figure in the passage who, according to some, is not the individual stated in the text, but a collective representation. This biased exegesis must be seen as the ‘anybody but Mary’ defense.

5th. Conversely, when Israel, Christians or the Church appear elsewhere in Revelation, they do not appear as personifications. They appear in literal form, as groups of individuals. See Rev 7.4: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel; Rev 7.9: …a great multitude that no-one could count…; Rev 12.17: …the rest of her offspring - those who obey God’s commandments… Even where the Church appears as the Bride of Christ, and a female personification would be expected, we do not get one. Instead of appearing as a woman, the Church appears as a City - the new Jerusalem. Rev 21: 9-10.

6th. If there is any doubt as to what a symbolic personage in Revelation might represent, or if a veiled meaning is intended, that meaning is immediately explained in the text. The Lamb is defined as the Lord of Lords, the Dragon is Satan. The Heads of the Beast are Kings. However no such explanation is given with respect to the Woman, underlining that the obvious meaning is the one that is intended.

7th. If we look at the reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars in this passage, the Sun, Moon and stars can indeed be taken to represent Israel. BUT in Revelation the Sun, Moon and Stars are not the subjects of the Vision. They instead form the adornments of the woman. This indicates that although the Woman is linked with Israel, she is quite clearly NOT Israel.

8th. The Woman of Revelation 12 is introduced as a great sign in Heaven. Where else in the bible can we see a Woman announced as a great sign. Look at Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” We can see that this is exactly the same sign as in Revelation 12, confirming that the Woman in both occurences is Mary.

9th. Verse 17 shows the Christians, both as Children of the Woman, and as being persecuted. Who was persecuting the Christians after the ressurrection? The Jews! So how can the Woman represent the Jews, when She and her offspring are being persecuted by the Jews?

As far as the Woman “fleeing into the desert”, this is either referring to, the Flight into Egypt from Herod’s assassins, or else to the first persecution of Christians after Stephen’s death, when all Christians had to flee Jerusalem.Not at all. The interpretation of the Woman as Israel is a modern invention, with no ancient attestation whatsoever, and it is at variance with the symbolism of the chapter

It is possible that there are subsidiary meanings to the figure of the Woman - as there are to some other figures in Revelation. But the obvious primary meaning - that the woman giving birth to Jesus is actually Jesus’s mother - must be accepted. The only reason that some fight so hard against it, is that it conflicts with their deep-seated anti-Mary bias.
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t this ^^ on another thread?
 
Actually that passage has multiple meanings and fulfillments so that all of us may well be right…but here again, it’s not either/or it’s both/and.
Mary could not flee into desert AFTER our Lord went up to heaven as verse 5 and 6 states.
For further prophecy on Israel see zech14:1-5 it says almost the same thing as rev prophecy about fleeing during the trib.
 
Mary could not flee into desert AFTER our Lord went up to heaven as verse 5 and 6 states.
For further prophecy on Israel see zech14:1-5 it says almost the same thing as rev prophecy about fleeing during the trib.
Many early Catholic Christians fled to many places for personal safety. I guess if we knew where John “fled” to, we would know where Mary was too.
 
In the literal sense, the woman is also Mary. Since she bore Jesus. Jesus was born out of the virgin Mary.
Literally
Mary was Part of the Nation of Israel when she was alive. Now she is in heaven so the passage is not refering to her.
 
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