Revelation 19 and the marriage of the lamb

[Helena01]

Could anyone help me here please. I am in discussion with a good friend who is Protestant and we are debating the Rapture. He thinks that you can’t have the 2nd coming before the church is all in heaven, he thinks the marriage of the Lamb scene demonstrates this. Since the marriage of the Lamb happens just before the 2nd coming that means we are all already there.

Can someone explain Rev 19 with regard to the marriage of the lamb as my friend seems to think that is the 2nd coming of Christ. I am really confused!!!

Thanks

Godbless

Helena

 

[mark_a]

 

[Robbinson]

Could anyone help me here please. I am in discussion with a good friend who is Protestant and we are debating the Rapture. He thinks that you can’t have the 2nd coming before the church is all in heaven, he thinks the marriage of the Lamb scene demonstrates this. Since the marriage of the Lamb happens just before the 2nd coming that means we are all already there.

Can someone explain Rev 19 with regard to the marriage of the lamb as my friend seems to think that is the 2nd coming of Christ. I am really confused!!!

Thanks

Godbless

Helena

all the saints who are currently in heaven with Christ.

A few difficulties with a pre-tribulation rapture

1. When jesus prayed for the apostles - he didn’t pray to take them out of the world, but to protect them while in it
2. In the story of Noah (often cited as a pre trib rapture verse), the elect were not taken out of the world, they were preserved on earth through the period of tribulation
3. Jesus did not promise to take us away from tribulation - he said if that if we love him we will pick up our cross and follow him (suffer through, but prevail through, tribulation)
4. Israel will come to faith - but after the full allotment of gentiles comes in - and scripture suggests that their coming to faith will bring back to faith those chrisitans who have grown cold in their own faith. Its difficult to imagine the believing church being pulled up from earth before Israel comes to faith
5. The earliest creeds - reflecting the teachings of the apostles and their direct disciples tell us that jesus is returning to “judge the living and the dead” (not rule 1,000 years and then judge).

That said - a lot of energy is wasted on this issue - lets all I’ve each day as though tomorrow is the day of judgement.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is the footnote from the Aquinas Study Bible

19:9 marriage supper of the Lamb: This is the festival of those who are saved and the all-encompassing harmony in gladness, of which the blessed ones who will attain this will enter together into the eternal bridal chamber of the Holy Bridegroom of clean souls. (St. Andrew of Caesarea)

 

[pablope]

Could anyone help me here please. I am in discussion with a good friend who is Protestant and we are debating the Rapture. He thinks that you can’t have the 2nd coming before the church is all in heaven, he thinks the marriage of the Lamb scene demonstrates this. Since the marriage of the Lamb happens just before the 2nd coming that means we are all already there.

Can someone explain Rev 19 with regard to the marriage of the lamb as my friend seems to think that is the 2nd coming of Christ. I am really confused!!!

Thanks

Godbless

Helena

I suggest you read this book…The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn…amazon.com/gp/product/0385496591?ie=UTF8&tag=scotthcom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0385496591

The marriage supper of the Lamb also refers to the Mass…

Here is some starters of the end times, as taught by the CC:

scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html

The Rapture
1 Thess. 4:16-17 - Paul writes that “we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Many Protestants call this experience the “rapture” (even though the word “rapture” is not found in the Bible, although is derived from the Latin vulgate of this verse – “rapiemur”). John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The question Protestantism has raised is “when will the rapture occur?” They have developed three theories – (1) post-tribulation; (2) pre-tribulation; and, (3) mid-tribulation. We address these theories later on. But first, here is some more background.

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. Protestants generally call this period of a thousand years the “millennium.” The “millennium” is a harbinger of the end of the world, and the theories of when the “rapture” will occur center around this period of time. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a “thousand hills.” The word “thousand” here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a “thousand thousands” served him. Again, “thousand” means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a “thousand” years and a “thousand” years is one day. “Thousand” is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:

(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.

(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.

(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.

 

[mark_a]

 

[Helena01]

Sorry everyone for getting back late to you, I had problems with accessing my e-mails for a new reset password. Also apologies if this post is long as I have had to show the Bible verses which he is using to counter my argument (in the nicest possible way)

Anyhow, thankyou so much for all your replies! They have really helped. I am trying to understand what my friend is getting at when he say’s

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

When compared with:

Revelation 19:11-21

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Also looking at:

1 Corinthians 15:50-58

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

He is of the opinion that both the above and the 1 Thesselonians verse refer to the same event. They both speak of a trumpet and a a shout, a command from the Lord, the dead rising and us following the dead, transformed. Yet he thinks the verses have absolutely no correlation to Revelation 19?

He thinks imagery used is not comparable, one shows judgement, the other loving embrace, One comes from heaven WITH the SAINTS (that’s all of us christians) and the others show Jesus coming for us alone, nothing else is mentioned.

He believes one is is clearly referring to the 2nd coming (Revelation 19), so he has asked me what are the others referring to?

He is adamant that they are clearly two different events and that they do not coincide in the least, I’ve been trying to explain to him but he doesn’t grasp what I am saying! .:banghead:

Edit: For typos…

 

[Helena01]

Here is the footnote from the Aquinas Study Bible

19:9 marriage supper of the Lamb: This is the festival of those who are saved and the all-encompassing harmony in gladness, of which the blessed ones who will attain this will enter together into the eternal bridal chamber of the Holy Bridegroom of clean souls. (St. Andrew of Caesarea)

Hi Copland,

Thanks you for your help…

Do you understand the footnote to mean: Those who are saved are A: Those who have already died in Christ and are in heaven waiting for the day of judgement or B: Those on earth who are waiting for the Lord and this is what is to come after the day of judgement?

 

[Helena01]

all the saints who are currently in heaven with Christ.

A few difficulties with a pre-tribulation rapture

1. When jesus prayed for the apostles - he didn’t pray to take them out of the world, but to protect them while in it
2. In the story of Noah (often cited as a pre trib rapture verse), the elect were not taken out of the world, they were preserved on earth through the period of tribulation
3. Jesus did not promise to take us away from tribulation - he said if that if we love him we will pick up our cross and follow him (suffer through, but prevail through, tribulation)
4. Israel will come to faith - but after the full allotment of gentiles comes in - and scripture suggests that their coming to faith will bring back to faith those chrisitans who have grown cold in their own faith. Its difficult to imagine the believing church being pulled up from earth before Israel comes to faith
5. The earliest creeds - reflecting the teachings of the apostles and their direct disciples tell us that jesus is returning to “judge the living and the dead” (not rule 1,000 years and then judge).

That said - a lot of energy is wasted on this issue - lets all I’ve each day as though tomorrow is the day of judgement.

Blessings,

Brian

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your reply. I also thought that the marriage supper of the lamb was referring to the Saints in heaven, yet am I right in thinking this is before Christ’s second coming? Duh… I know I sound stupid but my brain hurts with trying to understand what my friend is trying to convey to me. I can’t fathom how he is coming to the conclusion he is (see my post regarding the scripture he is working from to counter my argument)

Thanks so much:thumbsup:

 

[Helena01]

I suggest you read this book…The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn…amazon.com/gp/product/0385496591?ie=UTF8&tag=scotthcom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0385496591

The marriage supper of the Lamb also refers to the Mass…:thumbs up:

Here is some starters of the end times, as taught by the CC:

scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html

The Rapture
1 Thess. 4:16-17 - Paul writes that “we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Many Protestants call this experience the “rapture” (even though the word “rapture” is not found in the Bible, although is derived from the Latin vulgate of this verse – “rapiemur”). John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The question Protestantism has raised is “when will the rapture occur?” They have developed three theories – (1) post-tribulation; (2) pre-tribulation; and, (3) mid-tribulation. We address these theories later on. But first, here is some more background.

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. Protestants generally call this period of a thousand years the “millennium.” The “millennium” is a harbinger of the end of the world, and the theories of when the “rapture” will occur center around this period of time. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a “thousand hills.” The word “thousand” here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a “thousand thousands” served him. Again, “thousand” means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a “thousand” years and a “thousand” years is one day. “Thousand” is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.

2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:

(1) Post-tribulation view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.

(2) Pre-tribulation view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.

(3) Mid-tribulation view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.

Thanks for your reply! Also I can see the parallels with The marriage supper of the Lamb with Mass:thumbs up: I will take a look at the links too

 

[puppypatrol]

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach a concept like “the Rapture”. The Rapture as the Protestants believe it doesn’t exist, no matter if they think it is before or after the 2nd coming. Christ is only coming again ONCE; not multiple times depending on who you are talking to. I do have to agree that Scott Hahn has one of the best explaination of the Book of Revelation in “The Lamb’s Supper” or in “The Fourth Cup”

Another verse our Protestant Brothers and Sisters like to use in proving the “Rapture” is in Luke chapter 17.

Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses it will save it. I tell you, on that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken, the other left. And there will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left.” They said to him in reply, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will gather.”

What they neglect to take into account is the very last verse “Where the body is, there also the vultures will gather”. So, those who are carted away will be with the Vultures.
Not somewhere I want to be. I personally don’t want to be “Raptured away” to where the Vultures gather. I will stay right here and wait for Christ to come.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Hi Copland,

Thanks you for your help…

Do you understand the footnote to mean: Those who are saved are A: Those who have already died in Christ and are in heaven waiting for the day of judgement or B: Those on earth who are waiting for the Lord and this is what is to come after the day of judgement?/QUOTE

Perhaps I should have given the footnote to 19:7 as well because it answers your question, here it is…

19:7 marriage of the Lamb is come: In this life the Church is the spouse of Christ, whose espousals are by grace celebrated in baptism. But in a future life she will be the wife by glory, whose nuptials will be celebrated in heaven throughout all eternity. (Cornelius a Lapide)