Revelation 22:8-9

[Ary_girl]

I searched for threads or posts on this verse, but I couldn’t find any, so could someone either direct me to a previous thread or explain it to me.

I am wondering about the difference between worship and veneration. I was trying to explain asking the saints for intercession to one of my friends and she gave me this verse. It has troubled me for some time, as well, and I do not know how to respond to her, because it seems like John may have just been venerating the angel, but the angel clearly knows that he was worshiping him. Where is the line drawn between prayer and veneration? Did John actually think that the angel was God? because that is what worship is, giving the praise due to God.

I already know about Revelation 5:8 and was going to show her that, but at the same time, I do not want her to feel like I am just blowing off Revelation 22.

Pax,
Hillary

 

[stfrancisway]

The key word is “worship.” We should always pray for each other and ask others to pray for us. If we are truly part of a family, God’s family, a family sticks together and always communicates its joys, sorrows, and tribulation. If I need help whom do I ask for help? A complete stranger? No, I go to a sibling, or a parent, close family member. When we were baptized, we were baptized in Christ. This baptism is how we become children of God, a family. Christ is the “Head” and only the head (Christ) is to be worshiped, but I don’t disrespect his body (Church= saints, living and dead). To “vernerate” is to show respect (Honor) a holy family member (body). The ten commandments tells us to “honor” your mother and father. Is this “verneration” worshiping your parents? No! If your friend really thinks about verneration (Honor) is, then she will not be intimidated by it. Why? because she is honoring a lot of people in her life already. I have a good feeling she is not even close to worshiping those people. Peace

 

[Ary_girl]

Thanks for your reply,

This is what I was going to tell her as an example:
Anyways, if I were to tell you, Alexa, you are a wonderful artist, and then proceed to ask, could you please help me in whatever way you can to draw like you? Would you think that I am worshiping you by saying that I like what you have done? Or the way that you have used the talents that God gave you? I wouldn’t think so, or I wouldn’t have just said that to you. I also would not ask you to help me out with my drawing. Let’s take Joseph, the adopted father of Jesus for example. I’d tell him, “Hey Joseph, I like the way that you listened to the angel and humbly took Mary to be your wife. You are quite a good example for us on earth trying to live holy lives. Could you pray that I might be able to live a life as commited to following God’s will as you did?”

I guess I was trying to figure out the context that this verse was in. I don’t understand why John was worshiping the angel, or why that term was used. Did John actually pay honor to the angel as he would to God? Was it an orientation of the heart? Was it the manner in which he did it (ie bowing down)? But if this were the case than people paying homage to a king would be worshiping him. If the word worship had been left out of that passage, I would have thought that John was just venerating the angel by bowing down or paying respect. Where is the line crossed?

Was it that John was acting as if it was by the angel’s power that he was able to see all these things and did not recognize God’s hand in it?

 

[COPLAND_3]

Was it that John was acting as if it was by the angel’s power that he was able to see all these things and did not recognize God’s hand in it?

Yes, John tried to worship the angel, which the angel forbided. John tried to give adoration that belonged to God alone, it was not the same kind of verneration that is acceptable for created beings. I think St. Thomas Aquinas sums it up quite well in his Summa Theologica. Here is where he covers Rev. 22:9, and talks about addoration to men and God and the distinction between the 2. First here is the link newadvent.org/summa/3084.htm

I answer that, Adoration is directed to the reverence of the person adored. Now it is evident from what we have said (81, 2,4) that it is proper to religion to show reverence to God. Hence the adoration whereby we adore God is an act of religion.

Reply to Objection 1. Reverence is due to God on account of His excellence, which is communicated to certain creatures not in equal measure, but according to a measure of proportion; and so the reverence which we pay to God, and which belongs to latria, differs from the reverence which we pay to certain excellent creatures; this belongs to dulia, and we shall speak of it further on (103). And since external actions are signs of internal reverence, certain external tokens significative of reverence are offered to creatures of excellence, and among these tokens the chief is adoration: yet there is one thing which is offered to God alone, and that is sacrifice. Hence Augustine says (De Civ. Dei x, 4): “Many tokens of Divine worship are employed in doing honor to men, either through excessive humility, or through pernicious flattery; yet so that those to whom these honors are given are recognized as being men to whom we owe esteem and reverence and even adoration if they be far above us. But who ever thought it his duty to sacrifice to any other than one whom he either knew or deemed or pretended to be a God?” Accordingly it was with the reverence due to an excellent creature that Nathan adored David; while it was the reverence due to God with which Mardochai refused to adore Aman fearing “lest he should transfer the honor of his God to a man” (Esther 13:14).

Again with the reverence due to an excellent creature Abraham adored the angels, as did also Josue (Joshua 5:15): though we may understand them to have adored, with the adoration of latria, God Who appeared and spoke to them in the guise of an angel. It was with the reverence due to God that John was forbidden to adore the angel (Apocalypse 22:9), both to indicate the dignity which he had acquired through Christ, whereby man is made equal to an angel: wherefore the same text goes on: “I am thy fellow-servant and of thy brethren”; as also to exclude any occasion of idolatry, wherefore the text continues: “Adore God.”

 

[puzzleannie]

the distinction is the definition of Worship. I just heard this on EWTN and when I remember the priest, I will tell you.

For Catholics, worship means sacrifice, specifically the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which perpetuates Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary in the unbloody manner instituted at the Last Supper. We offer the sacrifice with, in and through Jesus Christ who offers Himself, to the Father, through the Holy Spirit.

To no other entity, only to the Trinity One God, do we offer sacrifice, worship and praise.

To other denominations, who have rejected the entire notion of sacrifice and of the ordained priesthood which is necessary for the sacrifice, worship means merely singing, praying and hearing the Word proclaimed. All of those are excellent means of praise and forming minds and hearts for God, but they are not true worship.

so praying with and to the saints, is not worship, because it is not the Sacrifice.

 

[nablaise]

I think what John is trying to tell us in that verse is that he mistaked the angel to be God.

When he saw the angel, he thought it was God, so he fell down to worship.

This was an innocent gesture. I don’t think it has something to do a possibility that he may have a mistaken notion of adoration/worship/veneration.

He just thought it was God, and proceed to worship.
The angel told him that it was not God and introduced himself.

God bless

 

[Anita_K]

the distinction is the definition of Worship. I just heard this on EWTN and when I remember the priest, I will tell you.

For Catholics, worship means sacrifice, specifically the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which perpetuates Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary in the unbloody manner instituted at the Last Supper. We offer the sacrifice with, in and through Jesus Christ who offers Himself, to the Father, through the Holy Spirit.

To no other entity, only to the Trinity One God, do we offer sacrifice, worship and praise.

To other denominations, who have rejected the entire notion of sacrifice and of the ordained priesthood which is necessary for the sacrifice, worship means merely singing, praying and hearing the Word proclaimed. All of those are excellent means of praise and forming minds and hearts for God, but they are not true worship.

so praying with and to the saints, is not worship, because it is not the Sacrifice.

Jesus taught us to pray, he gave us the Our Father, he didn’t tell us to pray to saints, only to God.

if Jesus is the way, and he said to pray to God, who said to pray to saints and who’s way is this?

 

[Penitus]

Jesus taught us to pray, he gave us the Our Father, he didn’t tell us to pray to saints, only to God.

if Jesus is the way, and he said to pray to God, who said to pray to saints and who’s way is this?

Haven’t you asked fellow Christians to pray for you before?

Catholics ask fellow Christians to pray for them too, and yet we don’t believe that death can stop this process because those in Heaven are alive in Christ (Mk 12:27).

 

[Steven_John]

i believe we can ask saints to pray with us and for us, but we must be careful to not pray to saints, only with.

 

[Steven_John]

Haven’t you asked fellow Christians to pray for you before?

Catholics ask fellow Christians to pray for them too, and yet we don’t believe that death can stop this process because those in Heaven are alive in Christ (Mk 12:27).

This is true and we are blessed to pray together and for each other.

This is not a conviction i have but more of a question.

In death will not the true state of what we have earned be realized?

Only God knows truly what is in the heart, the true state we will realize.

I have been told there were inquisitors that are saints. I don’t feel comfortable asking them to pray for me. In their day I am sure church members thought them to be very pious. I don’t like what i know of them now more has been revealed.
They don’t seem to be an image of My God.

Could it be that Jesus (PBWH) taught us the safe and true way to pray?
Did any other prophet offer any other way?
If Jesus (PBWH) is the way to the Father which saints did he pray to?

That leads me to echo Anita k s question who taught us to pray to saints?

May The Almighty All knowing All seeing God bless us all, answering the prayers of our heart and protecting us ALL from evil no matter how we pray.

I reckon it my be more of a conviction than question , sorry but i do like to learn from others and consider my self to open to truth