Revelation 6: 9-11: Why are the martyred saints asking for revenge?

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Yesterday, I listened to the Book of Revelation while I was ironing. Every time I come upon the passage on 6:9-11, I stop to wonder why the martyred saints are asking for revenge. I would think that they would be more forgiving. What do you think?

Revelation 6: 9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[a] were killed just as they had been.
 
God is loving and merciful but He is also just. People who choose evil deserve the consequences and God will give it to them if they do not repent.
 
Abba said:
Yesterday, I listened to the Book of Revelation while I was ironing. Every time I come upon the passage on 6:9-11, I stop to wonder why the martyred saints are asking for revenge. I would think that they would be more forgiving. What do you think?

Revelation 6: 9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[a] were killed just as they had been.
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When someone does you wrong and you forgive them, you don’t leave them off the hook, you leave it in God’s hands to administer justice/chastisement. That’s my pov.
 
Abba said:
Yesterday, I listened to the Book of Revelation while I was ironing. Every time I come upon the passage on 6:9-11, I stop to wonder why the martyred saints are asking for revenge. I would think that they would be more forgiving. What do you think?

Revelation 6: 9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[a] were killed just as they had been.
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After the opening of the fifth seal, the souls of the martyrs under the altar cried aloud for justice, saying, how long, &c. Out of zeal for God’s honour, and the good of the Church, they pray that the enemies of Christ, and of the Christian faith, may be humbled, and that all may acknowledge and fear the justice of God, by the punishment of his enemies, and the reward of his faithful servants.
Revenge our blood. They ask not this out of hatred to their enemies, but out of zeal for the glory of God, and a desire that the Lord would accelerate the general judgment, and the complete beatitude of all his elect. (Challoner) — These holy souls, who had been slain for the word of God, do not beg the Almighty to revenge their blood, through any hatred to their enemies, but through the great zeal with which they were animated, to see the justice of God manifested: that by this severity they might be moved to fear him, and be converted to him. Thus in the Scripture we often read of the prophets beseeching the Almighty to fill their enemies with confusion, to humble them, &c.
haydock1859.tripod.com/id292.html
In other words, they were martyred for Christ, and this injustice is not just to be left hanging. Conversion of the sinners is ideal, but this does not do away with purging the injustice from the land. If God didn’t avenge - in some sense - then what kind of Justice would He be upholding in the persecution of His saints? God can at least humiliate these enemies, knock some sense into them.
 
Robertanthony said:
When someone does you wrong and you forgive them, you don’t leave them off the hook, you leave it in God’s hands to administer justice/chastisement. That’s my pov.
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Thank you all for your response. I appreciate them.

When I forgive someone, I do think that I leave it in God’s hands and also consider that they will be judged by God at the time of their death and at the Last Judgement. However, when I forgive, although I am leaving it in God’s hands I even pray for the salvation of the people and ask God to guide them in the right path and bring them to repentance. I am not thinking of revenge, but really forgiving and wishing the best for that person/s. If that is me, a sinner, how much more would not the saints want them forgiven and brought to salvation? That includes not expecting any revenge nor desiring it.
 
Furthermore, doesn’t their request show attachment to the world left behind? I would think that they would be more concern about saving souls and praying to the Lord on behalf of someone, like the other saints and Mother Mary.

Also, I would think that they would be so filled with love by being in the presence of Our Lord that they would not lament or want other things, especially - revenge.
 
Abba said:
Yesterday, I listened to the Book of Revelation while I was ironing. Every time I come upon the passage on 6:9-11, I stop to wonder why the martyred saints are asking for revenge. I would think that they would be more forgiving. What do you think?
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I’ve never heard a priest or theological expert explain this.

I too find this demand for revenge to be unworthy of Saints and outside the character even of God.

Jesus on the Cross did not utter curses of revenge. Rather, he asked God to forgive those who were torturing and murdering him.

Jesus did not utter curses of revenge against the Jewish authorities who were seeking his death, at least not during the trial they conducted** in the Sandhedrin**.

Jesus did not utter curses of revenge against Pontius Pilate.

We all know that is it common and natural to want revenge, and supernatural and saintly to forgive and “pray for enemies.”

I think it well accepted that Catholics are not obligated to accept everything in the Book of Revelation** on a literal level**.

Therefore,** I personally make this “wild” interpretation:** God will judge sins, but he will kill no one, but rather will act like a loving parent who corrects his children so that his children can learn to live well and succeed in life. So, all the language that seems to show the saints as being blood-thirsty for revenge, I would reinterpret as meaning that the the saints have a strong desire to see all sinners gain correction and thus attain eternal happiness in Heaven. But that’s just my view. I think only a bishop could really answer this question. I wouldn’t even trust the average priest or apologist, since I feel that some of them give personal opinions rather than the mandatory teachings of the Church.

When you read some of the “Fathers of the Church,” you will see that one some points they disagreed with each other, and some of their interpretations of the Bible are VERY non-literal.

Hope all that was of some use to you. Best wishes.
 
I do agree though that it seems out of character for martyrs to be asking that, so I believe Bartolome Casas may be on to something. There’s lots and lots of stuff from the Bible that are puzzling (me).
 
“Avenger of blood” is a Jewish legal term – the only one who could take legal action against a murderer was someone close kin to the murdered who was designated the family’s official avenger of blood for that particular case.

Asking for an avenger, in Jewish legal terms, is exactly the same as asking for your day in court. It’s also calling on Jesus, their Brother, to fulfill the loving obligations of Covenant kinship and get them justice.

Justice and Logos (the Word/cosmic order) are extremely close concepts. If God has created a world that makes sense (a world with Logos), He must make everything come out justly in the end – even if it’s at the very End.

So the martyrs not only have a right to ask for justice; it’s in consonance with the harmony and beauty of Creation and the Creator that they should ask and He should grant it. Not to ask would be to say that it was perfectly okay for the world to be fallen and out-of-joint, and not to want Creation to be redeemed and saved and made new.

Now, Jesus is also the Judge and the Redeemer, and He certainly is willing to forgive and redeem the sins of even murderers. But as our next of kin, legally He has to track them down first as our Avenger of Blood.

The old Jewish Encyclopedia has an interesting article about the legal duties of the go’el ha-dam, and of the alternate function of the go’el as Redeemer and as one of the titles of God.
 
Okay, folks - I got the Catholic Answer. However, at least to me it only raises more questions. 😛

I looked here and I looked there and I looked every where and it wasn’t for green eggs and ham. 🙂 It was for the answer to this question. I searched the Holy See website, I researched the Fathers of the Church and I kept digging and searching - to no avail. Tertullian mentions it in passing and assumes it’s meaning is understood.

One thing I have yet to do is to look in my books of the Sermons of Saint Anthony of Padua to see if he ever wrote about this passage.

I also took out my Jerusalem Bible which is a translation to the Spanish from the French. It is huge, leather bound, gilt edges, illustrated, silk ribbons and all and cost me a mint in the Dominican Republic. I take it out for these occasions as it has excellent notes. I’ll get to what it says later. For now, let me just say that it does not give a clear explanation, instead it present the sufferings of the saints as having been combined with that of Jesus.

Well, I decided to ask a wise and holy monsignor. After the noon Mass, like the straw man approached the wizard in the Wizard of Oz and this because I hold the Monsignor in high esteem, I approached him and asked my question. I love the way that in his wisdom he answers my complicated questions with a few words - no sweat. He simply said that they are asking for ‘vindication’ “to bring things back in harmony.”

Looking at the whole picture, it is not revenge for their own particular suffering for that has been combined with that of the Lord.

What sayest thou?
 
Abba said:
Furthermore, doesn’t their request show attachment to the world left behind? I would think that they would be more concern about saving souls and praying to the Lord on behalf of someone, like the other saints and Mother Mary.

Also, I would think that they would be so filled with love by being in the presence of Our Lord that they would not lament or want other things, especially - revenge.
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Jesus has already started the process of bringing divine judgment (at this point of the book) by breaking open the seals. I think it is more the case that the “souls” are fine with what Jesus is doing but are wondering how long until it’s over- then evil will be defeated and they will be raised from the dead.

Notice they are told to wait because more of their fellow servants have yet to be martyred. I don’t think it’s much different than them asking for Jesus to get on with it instead of waiting for the divine quota of martyrs to be met.
 
I think it is easier for us to understand if you think of them as looking for justice. You may be forgiven but you still have to pay a price.
 
While I have no doubt that Christ would have been prepared to forgive Judas, His actual declaration was that “it would have been better for that man if he had never been born.”

In other words, God is not soft. And I suspect the martyrs see things from God’s point of view. When a man murders another, I don’t think God’s impressed. He might be prepared to forgive, but He also expects justice.

I don’t have much trouble with the demand for ‘revenge’, and the sense I also get is that the martyrdom is widespread and ongoing. The world has learnt nothing, and what these martyrs are asking is how much longer is God going to allow the persecution to go on.
 
The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible
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The martyrs long for God to redress their murders. They pray, not out of hatred for their enemies. but out of love for justice. Being near the Judge, they agree with him and pray for the coming judgement, in which the rein of sin shall be destroyed and their lifeless bodies raised. (St. Bede, Explanation of the Apocalypse 6, 10) (CCC 2817)."
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It also may not be the “particular judgement” of the enemies/killers prayed for but the “general judgement” where all is put in order and the souls of the departed will be reunited with their bodies.
 
He simply said that they are asking for ‘vindication’ “to bring things back in harmony.”
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This reminds me of St. Augustine saying that ‘peace is the tranquility of order’. The saints desire what the Will of God is. Justice is a virtue, not a vice. We are to love virtues.

‘It is unlawful to desire vengeance considered as evil to the man who is to be punished, but it is praiseworthy to desire vengeance as a corrective of vice and for the good of justice; and to this the sensitive appetite can tend, in so far as it is moved thereto by the reason: and when revenge is taken in accordance with the order of judgment, it is God’s work, since he who has power to punish “is God’s minister,” as stated in Romans 13:4.’

St. Thomas Aquinas

‘The more we have experienced the patient mercies of God, the more we ought to be afraid of continuing to abuse them, lest the time of God’s vengeance overtake us. Revenge is Mine, and I will repay in due time. (Deut. 32:35) God will put an end to his forbearance towards those who will not cease to abuse it.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

‘He is never absent, and yet He is far from the thoughts of the wicked; yet He is not absent when far away, for where He is not present by grace He is present by vengeance.’

Pope St. Gregory the Great
 
Here is the footnotes from the Aquinas Study Bible

6:10 how long: They ask not this in hatred of their enemies, for whom they made supplication in this age. But in a love of justice, in which, as they who are placed near the Judge Himself, they agree with Him, they pray for the coming of the day of judgment, in which the reign of sin may be destroyed, and the resurrection of their lifeless bodies may come. For we also, in the present time, when we are commanded to pray for our enemies, say nevertheless, when we pray to the Lord, “Thy kingdom come.” (St. Bede)
 
Excellent question, and excellent responses! I learned something yet again. This got me to thinking about St Paul, the killer of Christians, the “martyr maker”. I tend to believe that the martyrs who were killed by the hand of St Paul got their vengeance/justice, and that worldly justice was done in that instance when St Paul was thrown off his horse.

Imagine the complete turn around, and how he himself made reparation to the martyrs’ blood, by becoming a soldier for Jesus… ah, Justice!
 
Abba said:
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[a] were killed just as they had been.
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Dear Abba, please note. I know that many translations **add arbitrary the word ‘number’ **like if there was a certain number of martyrs that will need to be kill. Is not in the Greek original.

“11 And a white robe was given to each one of them, and they were told to rest for a short time more, until also their fellow-servants and their brothers had been consecrated*, those about to be killed just as themselves.” This is a more literal rendering…
  • For the meaning of this you can go here:
newtorah.org/159.html

In the love of His Revelation,
Gloria
I will deal with your question about the avenging of their blood, in the next post.
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Abba said:
Yesterday, I listened to the Book of Revelation while I was ironing. Every time I come upon the passage on 6:9-11, I stop to wonder why the martyred saints are asking for revenge. I would think that they would be more forgiving. What do you think?
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I do not believe you can look at this passage isolated from Ap 19:1-2 :

"1 After this I heard what was like the great sound of a vast multitude in heaven saying:
Hallelujah, the salvation and the glory and the power of our God!
2 How true and just are his judgments,
because he has condemned the great prostitute,
who corrupted the earth with her fornication,
and he has avenged the blood of his servants on her"

In this way their blood is avange. This is their longing: to see the great prostitute destroyed, because she corrupted the earth with her fornications, “and from the wine of her fornication the inhabitants of the earth became drunk”. Ap 17:2

That is why the souls under the altar asked to avenge their blood on the ones dweling on the earth.

Hope this helps…😉

In the love of His Revelation,
Gloria

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