Revelation, and religious indentity

[ManRay]

How do you reconcile your religious identity or revelation with your geographical location, and the environment you came of age in?

What are the chances you would be christian if your parents were Muslim, and you were living in Indonesia? What about the environment? What if no one you knew was christian, and you had no available christian material? What are your chances that you’d be christian if your were born into some remote tribe in Africa outside of Missionary work, or some other thing introduced you to it?

 

[ivebeenshown]

‘All infidels and heretics are surely on the way to being lost. What an obligation we owe God! for causing us to be born not only after the coming of Jesus Christ, but also in countries where the true faith reigns! I thank Thee, O Lord, for this. Woe to me if, after so many transgressions, it had been my fate to live in the midst of infidels or heretics!’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

 

[Luvtosew]

How do you reconcile your religious identity or revelation with your geographical location, and the environment you came of age in?

What are the chances you would be christian if your parents were Muslim, and you were living in Indonesia? What about the environment? What if no one you knew was christian, and you had no available christian material? What are your chances that you’d be christian if your were born into some remote tribe in Africa outside of Missionary work, or some other thing introduced you to it?

Yes I’m Christian as I was born into RCC, and if I was born Muslim I’d be Muslim , some people change later in life, but yes I might of been Hindu, Buddha or whatever.

 

[R_C]

What are the chances you would be christian if your parents were Muslim, and you were living in Indonesia?

What are the chances that one would know multivariable calculus and high-level programming languages if he hadn’t gone to college?

 

[triumphguy]

How do you reconcile your religious identity or revelation with your geographical location, and the environment you came of age in?

What are the chances you would be christian if your parents were Muslim, and you were living in Indonesia? What about the environment? What if no one you knew was christian, and you had no available christian material? What are your chances that you’d be christian if your were born into some remote tribe in Africa outside of Missionary work, or some other thing introduced you to it?

How do you reconcile yours?

I’m guessing here: but you seem to be a child of the relativistic age, a logical positivist, a western liberal. Would you be the same if you were born 2000 years ago in North Africa?

So maybe your opinions are only avatars of the culture around you.

Perhaps, being inherently counter cultural Christianity calls its exponents to be more true to themselves.

 

[ManRay]

Goodness - I need to do a better job of peeling the onion for the discussion to start off correctly. First i would say that math, and things of that nature are the same every where. I don’t think that people in the Sudan have a special Sudanese math. My point is - NO - I don’t think if I grew up in France in the 60’s that I would have been as big of fan of Warhol as if growing up in New York. That’s my point. People speak of god revealing itself to them etc…etc… But it seems that it really just depends on your geographical location. There were a billion people in the middle east who had god revealed to them - it was pretty much Islam for the win. Following me?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

What are the chances that one would know multivariable calculus and high-level programming languages if he hadn’t gone to college?

Or even if he had.

 

[ManRay]

Or even if he had.

Keyboard warrior…he just can’t stop himself.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Goodness - I need to do a better job of peeling the onion for the discussion to start off correctly. First i would say that math, and things of that nature are the same every where. I don’t think that people in the Sudan have a special Sudanese math. My point is - NO - I don’t think if I grew up in France in the 60’s that I would have been as big of fan of Warhol as if growing up in New York. That’s my point. People speak of god revealing itself to them etc…etc… But it seems that it really just depends on your geographical location. There were a billion people in the middle east who had god revealed to them - it was pretty much Islam for the win. Following me?

Oh, we understand and you have a point. However if you are born in a free society where religious freedom is practiced in fact then the outcomes are quite different. So where does that leave you? And don’t forget God did actually reveal Himself to a number of folks and even in these last days He has sent His Mother on missions a number of times and Angels and Saints still visit people from time to time ( of course no one, not even Catholics have to believe it still happens, but I do - and with good reason.).

 

[R_C]

Or even if he had.

That’s funny

 

[triumphguy]

Goodness - I need to do a better job of peeling the onion for the discussion to start off correctly. First i would say that math, and things of that nature are the same every where. I don’t think that people in the Sudan have a special Sudanese math. My point is - NO - I don’t think if I grew up in France in the 60’s that I would have been as big of fan of Warhol as if growing up in New York. That’s my point. People speak of god revealing itself to them etc…etc… But it seems that it really just depends on your geographical location. There were a billion people in the middle east who had god revealed to them - it was pretty much Islam for the win. Following me?

You do know Andy Warhol was a practicing Catholic don’t you.

 

[Celticnovice]

How do you reconcile your religious identity or revelation with your geographical location, and the environment you came of age in?

What are the chances you would be christian if your parents were Muslim, and you were living in Indonesia? What about the environment? What if no one you knew was christian, and you had no available christian material? What are your chances that you’d be christian if your were born into some remote tribe in Africa outside of Missionary work, or some other thing introduced you to it?

I think about this…all the time, actually

It’s kind of funny because I was raised Catholic, then left and investigated different religions., reverted back to the Catholic faith, developed some personal conclusions then later discovered that these same conclusions are in fact part of the Catholic faith that I never knew existed.

 

[R_C]

I fail to see the point you are trying to make - that Christianity is not the best religion, maybe? We claim that we have the fullness of the divine revelation, not that we are the only good religion.

From the Apostolic Exhortation “Ecclesia in Medio Oriente”:

Jews, Christians and Muslims alike believe in one God, the Creator of all men and women.

Particularly with regards to Islam, in an official statement by Card. Tarcisio Bertone we find the following:

The position of the Pope concerning Islam is unequivocally that expressed by the conciliar document Nostra Aetate: “The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, Who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting”

From the Catechism, about every other religion:

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

With regards to atheism and agnosticism:

2124 The name “atheism” covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history."59 …]

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."62

2126 Atheism is often based on a false conception of human autonomy, exaggerated to the point of refusing any dependence on God.63 Yet, "to acknowledge God is in no way to oppose the dignity of man, since such dignity is grounded and brought to perfection in God. . . . "64 "For the Church knows full well that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart."65

2127 Agnosticism assumes a number of forms. In certain cases the agnostic refrains from denying God; instead he postulates the existence of a transcendent being which is incapable of revealing itself, and about which nothing can be said. In other cases, the agnostic makes no judgment about God’s existence, declaring it impossible to prove, or even to affirm or deny.

2128 Agnosticism can sometimes include a certain search for God, but it can equally express indifferentism, a flight from the ultimate question of existence, and a sluggish moral conscience. Agnosticism is all too often equivalent to practical atheism.

The issue is not so much whether we were grown into Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or atheism…the issue is whether we can understand what we are supposed to be doing and not doing in order to make the world a better place and stop innocent suffering - which the religious call God’s will, while the secular world to some extent acknowledges in an illuminated fashion (ex. Hobbes), to some extent even denies (ex. moral relativism).

The “good thing” about religions is that at least we are told that God is displeased when we do not do things well - we are commanded to distinguish good from evil and work to promote the former.

Christianity has a unique perspective, in that it clearly states - regardless of how this has been applied - the principles of love and charity to an extent never before known. Christ Himself, according to the Gospel, condemned all sort of violence, condemned not just misjudging but even insulting one another, and called to “put the sword away” and “pray for those who persecute”. It truly is, whether we like it or not, whether we believe in it or not, the most enlightened of all religions.

 

[InJesusItrust]

How do you reconcile your religious identity or revelation with your geographical location, and the environment you came of age in?

What are the chances you would be christian if your parents were Muslim, and you were living in Indonesia? What about the environment? What if no one you knew was christian, and you had no available christian material? What are your chances that you’d be christian if your were born into some remote tribe in Africa outside of Missionary work, or some other thing introduced you to it?

I would have become Christian regardless. Raised in a Hindu family in a secular culture. It was my hunger for truth that led me to Jesus, and anyone who loves truth greatly and seeks it with sincerity will have to answer the question as to whether Jesus is a madman or God.

 

[InJesusItrust]

What are the chances that one would know multivariable calculus and high-level programming languages if he hadn’t gone to college?

Hehe, I’m self-taught in both. Books are a blessing.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

How do you reconcile your religious identity or revelation with your geographical location, and the environment you came of age in?

That’s a question I used to ask myself. As far as I can tell my ancestors were Christian because their ancestor’s were Christian. Though when one goes back enough generations it seems the introduction to Christianity for many of my ancestors was tied to some rather coercive conversions. The knowledge was enough to motivate me to question my own justifications for remaining Christian and the truth value of many of the propositions. I shared some of those questions with church leaders. “I don’t know” was an incredibly common answer.

It wasn’t until about 10 years after this questioning started that I realized that I was no longer a Christian.

 

[ManRay]

Regardless of whether catholic authority claims that the major religions worship one god - doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the same god.

Claims such as this

It truly is, whether we like it or not, whether we believe in it or not, the most enlightened of all religions.

Always boggle my mind. No wonder different religious people have been at odds or at war.

Indonesia is almost 90% muslim. Out of the remaining 10% catholicism makes up around 3%. Think about that. Everyone on this board claims that they arrived at their position through faith, reason, and revelation. So what you are arguing is that there is a country where 97% of the population either cannot think at the level you can, or that god hasn’t chosen to reveal itself to them. Really? Whatever the reason is - you’re stating that 97% of a population cannot achieve what you have supposedly achieved.

Now lets look at Ireland. As of the1991 census… 92% of the population was Roman Catholic.
Indonesia 90% Muslim
Ireland 90% RC

Are you really trying to argue that it was revelation, and reason? Seriously? It seems that the overwhelming amount of evidence would support that the only reason the majority of people believe in what they believe is based of geography, environment, and the cultural norms. So there seems to be some sort of false dichotomy when the religious speak of revelation and reason.

Catholics love to pop off about moral relativism - hmmm - lets talk about religious relativism.

 

[Luvtosew]

I would have become Christian regardless. Raised in a Hindu family in a secular culture. It was my hunger for truth that led me to Jesus, and anyone who loves truth greatly and seeks it with sincerity will have to answer the question as to whether Jesus is a madman or God.

Why do you say that Jesus was either a madan or God?

 

[Luvtosew]

Regardless of whether catholic authority claims that the major religions worship one god - doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the same god.

Claims such as this

Always boggle my mind. No wonder different religious people have been at odds or at war.

Indonesia is almost 90% muslim. Out of the remaining 10% catholicism makes up around 3%. Think about that. Everyone on this board claims that they arrived at their position through faith, reason, and revelation. So what you are arguing is that there is a country where 97% of the population either cannot think at the level you can, or that god hasn’t chosen to reveal itself to them. Really? Whatever the reason is - you’re stating that 97% of a population cannot achieve what you have supposedly achieved.

Now lets look at Ireland. As of the1991 census… 92% of the population was Roman Catholic.
Indonesia 90% Muslim
Ireland 90% RC

Are you really trying to argue that it was revelation, and reason? Seriously? It seems that the overwhelming amount of evidence would support that the only reason the majority of people believe in what they believe is based of geography, environment, and the cultural norms. So there seems to be some sort of false dichotomy when the religious speak of revelation and reason.

Catholics love to pop off about moral relativism - hmmm - lets talk about religious relativism.

I’m sure your right, but there are some likeIn JesusItrust that felt Christianity had more to offer than Hinusism, but then Julia Roberts , Christian, became a Hindu, so people are switching back and forth.

I do wonder sometime if Jesus didn’t mean to just love everyone and honor everyone according to their beliefs, all humans just living together, sharing and respecting each other, instead of that we should all be Christians. So everyone worships differently, as long as they aren’t out kiling, cheating, and hurting their fellow man. Protestants look down on RC’s and vice versa, not all thank God, but it sure gets old…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I do wonder sometime if Jesus didn’t mean to just love everyone and honor everyone according to their beliefs, all humans just living together…]

That’s the Platinum Rule! It can be difficult to apply than the golden rule at times since it requires an understanding of others.