J
joseie
Guest
It is God inspired and let it remain in the Canon.What I am telling is that just don’t waste time in reading and studying it as what is written there is of no use now.Instead read other books which are of real use.
- Status
A
Achilles6129
Guest
So if it’s written and inspired by God why wouldn’t it be of use? Also, doesn’t the book say that the people who read it are blessed?
A
abucs
Guest
Hi Joseie, I look at it like this :
- the lines you quote come from a prologue, not written by John and not part of the vision
- the bulk of the main text is the vision seen by John who was ‘in the spirit’. In the vision John is talking to God (Jesus) and witnesses what happens on earth in the future from Heaven. So John is standing ‘outside of time’ in his vision. So from that perspective time is happening all at once.
Put those three things together and I think the vision and its reference to ‘soon’ can be explained.
I’m sure Mike from New Jersey will back me up.
D
Dorothy
Guest
Great post!Hi Joseie, I look at it like this :
3). Another perspective is that the revelation can both refer to the fall of the Jerusalem temple in 70 A.D. with the fulfilling of the Old Covenant and also the end of time judgement with the fulfilling of the New Testament. In some ways it is a cyclic revelation where God’s people will be challenged and suffer multiple times, each of which can be related to the vision from Heaven, which is outside of time.
- the lines you quote come from a prologue, not written by John and not part of the vision
- the bulk of the main text is the vision seen by John who was ‘in the spirit’. In the vision John is talking to God (Jesus) and witnesses what happens on earth in the future from Heaven. So John is standing ‘outside of time’ in his vision. So from that perspective time is happening all at once.
Put those three things together and I think the vision and its reference to ‘soon’ can be explained.
I’m sure Mike from New Jersey will back me up.
M
Mike_from_NJ
Guest
I’m sure Mike from New Jersey will back me up.
Let’s imagine that I make a prediction that soon the prime minister of Canada will get divorced. 20 years later and every prime minister from 2017 to 2037 has remained married. In order to claim that my prediction was either fulfilled or is still waiting to be fulfilled there are several avenues I can go:
- I can state that considering the position of prime minister is over 200 years old, “soon” should be considered to be a much larger length of time than 20 years.
- If there is a rumor (nothing concrete) several years from now that the new prime minister once cheated on his wife, then I can claimed that in a spiritual sense he divorced his wife (although they remained married).
- If a prominent person in Canada got a divorce I could say that the “prime minister” in my earlier prediction didn’t mean the literal prime minister but figurative someone of great importance.
Someone upthread mentioned preterism and futurism. Hal Lindsey, a futurist, once tried to explain away the various references to “this generation shall not pass away” before the return of Jesus by claiming that the fig tree was a symbol for the nation of Israel, so when it was reformed in 1948 “this generation” supposedly referred to that generation in 1948 and we should expect Jesus to return within about 40 years (what he claimed was the length of a generation). Not only did it ignore the various references to “none of you here shall taste death” and all the signs in Matthew 24, but it plays fast and loose with words which are needed to ground what sentences mean.
I’ve heard people try to say that “this generation” means the generation that will experience the signs told to them. Of course that ends up meaing “the generation that will experience these signs won’t pass away until they experience these signs”. I won’t eat steak again until I eat steak. A prophecy that can’t ever be wrong is as bad as one where its meaning is up for grabs.
That which was written in Revelation carries no weight if no one can agree what it is and, more importantly, what it isn’t.
A
abucs
Guest
Hello Mike, on such a complex topic I guess the conversation can always go in many different directions and I hope joseie will forgive me if I go off topic.
I’ll try to respond to two aspects of your post. Firstly, the question of
I’ll try to respond to two aspects of your post. Firstly, the question of
And secondly in a couple of days to your referencing of the New Testament prophetic words
which I think has been described as the most ‘challenging’ verse in the New Testament to explain. I have my own views but I will have to reread the entire passage again as it has been a while since I looked at it.
A
abucs
Guest
Yeah, fair question and I agree with you that there is huge vagueness in such prophecies and I am sure we both recognize the same in con artists telling a crowd that someone’s dead aunt Mary wishes them well after having collected money from each of them at the ticket booth.
However to ask the question – ‘what good are prophecies’ technically, one has to ask ‘good for who’? Since Christian prophecies by definition are initiated by God, the question becomes - what good does it do for God?
I accept that there could be different ways of looking at these vague prophecies but this might be a strength, not a weakness as far as God is concerned. I also acknowledge that we all have our own confirmation biases and with so many prophetic claims, statistically at least some are going to look credible which can lead us to look for our own connections between the prophetic words and our own evolved reality. Again from God’s perspective (rather than our own) such vagueness which forces us to join the dots in different ways and argue their merits among ourselves can be a positive rather than a negative as far as God is concerned
My understanding of the relationship between God and mankind is one where God is wanting mankind to come to a greater understanding of Himself through our own endevours. Through our own intelligence, logic and emotional goodness which all come together to be the attributes of God himself.
From my point of view, (and perhaps yours) I would like prophecies to prove there is a God (or not) but that is obviously not the main priority of God. If He wanted us to have absolute proof of His existence then He doesn’t need miracles or prophecies. Prophecies can appeal to our logical search for God but perhaps our evolution towards God is multifaceted and includes also morality and knowing ourselves and our place in existence. I think prophecies can point to His existence in part but it’s purpose (from God’s point of view) is not to prove He exists.
If you look at many of the Christian prophecies they often come in dream sequences and grand visions, perhaps none more so than the book of Revelation. As such they have many different themes and speak to many different people at many different times. If you look at great novels they do the same.
So for example the book ‘War and Peace’ can be seen as commenting on the nature of belief, the nature of love for family and nation, the futility of war, a negation of the ego of great men changing history, the betrayal of friendship, problems of choosing marriage partners, the despair of loss etc etc.
There are great lessons in such books and when read in community those lessons can be shared and affect community consciousness. Such lessons and moral consciousness are stronger through a group of people meditating on the significance of complex stories rather than simple clear directives or claims. In some ways the people and communities doing the meditating are taking part in forming their own souls with respect to the morals they themselves perceive from the stories.
So I think from God’s point of view dramatic prophecies like Revelation have the same affect. It makes us do the work of using our own intellect and morals to form our souls in how we would wish in order to come closer to God.
So for me the great prophecy of the book of Revelation talks of God holding the ultimate power, the nature of man to rebel and be selfish, the lesson that being faithful is a struggle that can mean great persecution, the relative importance of my own pain compared to ultimate goodness, the idea that God has a plan for humanity, that Jesus is a key part of that plan, that human society faces a choice between good and evil that will eventually culminate in an epic showdown, that Jesus’ incarnation has started a movement whose values will be a critical component of that showdown etc etc.
Such a rich ‘story/prophecy’ has a great effect on those meditating on these aspects and perhaps hundreds of other insights as well. So while the prophecy does have the truth of a future event it does so much more. It raises the consciousness and morality of community not merely saying something concrete giving exact names and dates etc which then limit the scope of possible understandings and growth of consciousness.
It is not like being told which horse is going to win the Kentucky Derby this year which is more verifiable and ‘good for’ us (wishing for prophecy to prove God) but not ‘good for’ God (whose plan might be to raise our consciousness and draw us closer to Him).
Sorry for rambling on, I will try to reply in the next couple of days regarding the "this generation shall not pass away’ prophetic example.
Disclaimer : Forgive me but I’m just giving my own thoughts. I am bound to be wrong on many things but that is part of the journey in raising my own consciousness.
A
Achilles6129
Guest
Abucs - are you saying that the prophecies in Revelation are not literally going to happen? Or do you believe that they have already happened? What exactly is your position?
A
Achilles6129
Guest
No, he’s saying that the generation that experiences the beginning of the signs will not pass away until his return. He’s actually giving a definite timespan. So it goes something like this:
General signs (wars/plagues, etc.)----->Specific signs (abomination of desolation, etc.)---->Christ will return while the generation that sees the specific signs is still alive.
In regards to the “none shall taste death” passage, Christ is talking about a different definition of death, as is plainly shown by other Scriptures:
“51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”” Jn. 8:51 (NASB)
As I’ve said before, these are specific prophecies which require specific fulfillment. It’s that simple. I’m aware that many people interpret them differently but I don’t see how that affects the book itself, it just means they’re more confused.
A
abucs
Guest
I am saying that the nature of revelation can be complex, cyclic and not strictly attached to one happening.
My thoughts are that Revelation applies to 70 A.D. and also to the end of the world as well as to persecutions in between.
A
Achilles6129
Guest
I see. Do you believe that it was written before 70 AD then?
A
abucs
Guest
Not necessarily. The more frequent dating as you know is in the 90’s but there are those arguing for a date before 70 A.D.
The ‘prophetic’ book of revelation could also refer (among others) to the recent destruction of the temple as part of a cyclic persecution of God’s people culminating in the end of time persecution.
Or possibly, but at the outside, the 70 A.D. destruction may not yet have happened.
I’m not sure.
- Status