Revelation: What's it really about?

  • Thread starter Thread starter TheButler
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This is one of the greatest misunderstandings of Revelation. Is a book of hope, and the fulfillment of promise, not one of warning or terror.
That depends entirely upon where your loyalties are. For the saints, there is fulfillment of the promise to which they are faithful. To those who choose evil there is warning because of the reality that awaits them if they continue to do so.

As an aside, to answer the thread topic, the “astrological” interpretation of Revelation is shallow and without substance. There are between 600 and 800 direct references and allusions to the OT, depending upon who you read. There are likely just as many references and allusions to the NT.

A few coincidental references to astrological signs along with the cryptic language incorporated throughout were used in order to keep the work beyond the scrutiny of Roman persecutors. This supports an earlier dating of the work to the time of the Neronian persecution.
 
That depends entirely upon where your loyalties are. For the saints, there is fulfillment of the promise to which they are faithful. To those who choose evil there is warning because of the reality that awaits them if they continue to do so.
psst… his audience is “Jesus Christ’s servants” (Rev 1:1) and the “seven churches in Asia” (Rev 1:4). You know, the folks that are “blessed … who listen to this prophetic message.” So, I think that the message here is “hope”… 😉
 
True, but these were the same servants who were being wrapped in oiled skins and used as human torches by Nero to light up his garden parties or thrown into arenas to be torn apart by carnivorous animals. I suspect the message wasn’t merely, “I’m okay, you’re okay. Just enjoy being ‘lit up,’” so to speak.

So the message of hope was intended for the servants who lived in soul-wrenchingly hopeless times.

Passages like this are found scattered throughout Revelation…
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed.

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and there came a great earthquake; the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree drops its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the magnates and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
(Cf. Revelation 6)
So, not exactly a message of hope for “the kings of the earth and the magnates and the generals and the rich and the powerful and everyone…” hiding in the caves and among the rocks who want the mountains to fall on them. So, apparently, it is intended as a message “of warning or terror” for some, but one of hope for others, the servants of God.
 
True, but these were the same servants who were being wrapped in oiled skins and used as human torches by Nero to light up his garden parties or thrown into arenas to be torn apart by carnivorous animals. I suspect the message wasn’t merely, “I’m okay, you’re okay. Just enjoy being ‘lit up,’” so to speak.
LOL!

No, but remember that one of the goals of apocalyptic literature is to comfort those undergoing difficult times, by letting them know that not only will God take care of them, but will open a can of whoop on the folks who are oppressing them now. 😉
So, not exactly a message of hope for “the kings of the earth and the magnates and the generals and the rich and the powerful and everyone…” hiding in the caves and among the rocks who want the mountains to fall on them. So, apparently, it is intended as a message “of warning or terror” for some, but one of hope for others, the servants of God.
Would you say that the message is directed at the “kings of the earth and the magnates and the generals and he rich and the powerful”? I’d suggest that it is not…
 
40.png
Vico:
The purpose of the Book of Revelation is to provide a warning to people of all epochs.
This is one of the greatest misunderstandings of Revelation. Is a book of hope, and the fulfillment of promise, not one of warning or terror.
Catholic Answers, Antonio Fuentes, describes the Apocalypse as containing a series of warnings.

 
Why would such a document be written and what relevance to to the Churches?
Well the book is known for its horses and the seven churches aren’t far from Troy.
I like reading it. My favourite book of the Bible. I’ve read it more times than any other book in the Bible, and I am seriously wondering if the OP has ever so much as cracked it.
All the pieces fit.
Cancer is a crab.
But it looks like a calf’s head and ‘Crab’ wouldn’t have fitted with Ezekiel.
Even if you could make your assertions stick, there’s still one problem: how could “one lone man writing in pidgin Greek on an island called Patmos” – a man who was exiled to the island by Domitian for his Christian beliefs – get the motivation to write about astronomy as if it were relevant to Christian belief? How could we assert that he knows these celestial bodies, and how could we assert that he cares about them?
Clearly he is well read and educated and education in those days would include astronomy, mathematics, philosophy, religion and the like. He would have come from a wealthy family and would not be your average oppressed Christian of the day. Further, considering he is on Patmos he knows a remarkable amount in detail about Jesus and Paul through his cross-referencing at a time books weren’t published and contact with the outside world was only be sea. He must have had some influence in society which would also require wealth to get his work out.
As an aside, to answer the thread topic, the “astrological” interpretation of Revelation is shallow and without substance.
It’s ‘astronomical’ in the first instance. It is scientific.
A few coincidental references to astrological signs along with the cryptic language incorporated throughout were used in order to keep the work beyond the scrutiny of Roman persecutors.
I would argue that at least 16 astronomical references all just above the horizon on a key date of the year (the winter solstice) on Patmos aren’t coincidental. I would also add that the Greco-Babylon tradition of relating metals to planets also ties in, relevant because the narrative is written in Greek and references Babylon specifically. The maiden has a child who will rule with a rod of iron. Mars is equated with iron. Mars in Virgo is also referenced in ‘birth stones’ whereby semi-precious gems are associated with times of the year. The throne in heaven is of jasper and sardine stone. Jasper relates to March (Mars) and Sardine stone (sardonyx) relates to August which is when the sun is in Virgo, hence Mars in Virgo.

I was taught to read literature in its historical and cultural context. I’ve done that even to the point I’ve looked up the night sky at the time. I don’t believe that has been done before in the case of Revelation. Why not? It has produced results.
 
Last edited:
Yes he does, but he is speaking through the lens of apologetics, not theology.
Where does science fit in? Or are religion and science mutually exclusive? My analysis of Revelation would say otherwise. In fact this could be the bridge between, say, the Pope and Stephen Hawking?
 

Yes he does, but he is speaking through the lens of apologetics, not theology.
So did you intend to ignores that aspect when you wrote that is was not a book of warning?
This is one of the greatest misunderstandings of Revelation. Is a book of hope, and the fulfillment of promise, not one of warning or terror.strong text
 
Last edited:
Where does science fit in? Or are religion and science mutually exclusive?
Science doesnt fit into Revelation at all. Scripture is not a science book, but a history of God’s salvation plan.

And I can’t speak for “religion”, but only of the theological concept of “truth”. Religion and science maybe mutually exclusive, but truth and science go hand in hand, and that is what the Church teaches.

If you attempt to use scripture to prove science, or science to validate spiritual truth, you will short change both science and truth.
 
Clearly he is well read and educated and education in those days would include astronomy, mathematics, philosophy, religion and the like. He would have come from a wealthy family and would not be your average oppressed Christian of the day. Further, considering he is on Patmos he knows a remarkable amount in detail about Jesus and Paul through his cross-referencing at a time books weren’t published and contact with the outside world was only be sea. He must have had some influence in society which would also require wealth to get his work out.
That’s a whole heap of unattributed presumption there, my friend… 🤷‍♂️

I could likewise say he had wings sprouting from his back, rode a magic unicorn, and consulted a genie in a bottle… and it would be as verifiable as everything you’ve written here. 😉
 
That’s a whole heap of unattributed presumption there, my friend… 🤷‍♂️

I could likewise say he had wings sprouting from his back, rode a magic unicorn, and consulted a genie in a bottle… and it would be as verifiable as everything you’ve written here. 😉
You can read and write and appear knowledgeable. It is therefore reasonable to assume you know something about mathematics. It is also reasonable to assess you have had an education given you are online and therefore in the developed world. That would mean you have studied history, geography, the sciences etc. You also know something of Western fairy tales and you are most likely a native speaker of US English by your use of ‘whole heap’ and the ability to segue words using at least and more than three syllables correctly.

Am I correct?
 
Okay, guys, let’s not be too hard on the OP. I like his boldness on dating, and hey! It’s cool that it’s not the 500th explanation of the Christmas star. Gotta crank up that astronomy software for other reasons, too. 🙂

The other thing to note is that the traditional interpretation of “I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day” is that John was saying Mass on Sunday. (Yes, that sounds kinda weird. But as you know, we don’t just say peace to the priest; we say, “And with your spirit.” The idea is that the priest is indeed in the Spirit when he celebrates Mass and acts in persona Christi; he is both priest and prophet then.)

Mass was almost always said facing East. And during early Christian times (since Sunday was a work day and since one fasted from midnight until one received Communion), Mass was in the early early morning, right before dawn. (To the point that some pagan Romans thought that Christians worshipped the Sun.)

So when the OP pictures John looking up at the sky at sunrise, he’s got the Mass time right. Therefore, I do not totally dismiss his idea; it’s a good start.

Probably the biggest (and least well-organized!) book on possible astronomical symbolism in the Book of Revelation is the old “Social-Science Commentary on the Book of Revelation” by Bruce J. Malina and John J. Pilch. Bruce Malina is justly famous for providing historical and cultural context research.

The problem is that the book has a tendency to have some good information, get you interested, and then run straight over to crazytown (it’s academic crazytown, though). So my big problem was not rolling my eyes too hard, and not breaking into rebuttal every two or three pages.

However, the nice thing for the OP is that it’s very cheap on Kindle (I think I bought it for 5 bucks), and it provides a lot of bibliography and source material. So if he were to use this book as a springboard, he might be able to find some really good info.

The thing is that we don’t know much about how Jewish ideas about astronomy/astrology interacted with those of other ancient cultures. Ancient astronomy is a pretty deep academic topic. The problem is that not all science people have the languages, and not all people with the languages have the science and math. So while reading Malina and Pilch, I quickly found out that the ancient astronomy people tended to be debunking older research into ancient astronomy – and those older works were the ones Malina and Pilch were using! Problem!

So like I say, there’s plenty of room for a patient person to putter around and look into it, and do it better.

However, one would not be able to disregard all the Bible references and salvation history references in Revelation, so you’d have to spend a fair amount of time figuring out how these things harmonize. But Revelation is a pretty fun book; and it’s almost a textbook in understanding the rest of the Bible if you follow the references. There are a lot of books explaining that, so the OP wouldn’t have to start from scratch.

Good thesis material!
 
Last edited:
Cancer is three lines diverging from a single point. How does it look like a calf’s head (or a crab)?
 
The Bible is the word of God therefore it is inspired.If you don’t believe it you have that right. Revelations tells us some theologians say that it was things happening at that time. Remember they had a lot of Roman persecution when John was writing Revelations. The lady clothed in the Sun is Mary and the twelve stars are that of the tribes of Israel. The moon at her feet remember Mary was assumed into heaven so I believe and many Catholic’s that she is right beside her son in heaven. That’s why I think John says the moon is at her feet.
 
Ah yes, the moon, symbol of change. Our Blessed Mother, stands on this reflected light. Her being above it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top