Revelation: What's it really about?

[Zaccheus]

@TheButler:
To what purpose?

 

[Gorgias]

You can read and write and appear knowledgeable. It is therefore reasonable to assume you know something about mathematics. It is also reasonable to assess you have had an education given you are online and therefore in the developed world. That would mean you have studied history, geography, the sciences etc. You also know something of Western fairy tales and you are most likely a native speaker of US English by your use of ‘whole heap’ and the ability to segue words using at least and more than three syllables correctly.

Am I correct?

About me? Yes.

However, your assertions about John went far further. He’s an astronomer? He’s wealthy? He’s connected? Yet… he doesn’t write in classical Greek? He talks astrology but doesn’t mention the names that his contemporaries would understand? (After all, if he’s attempting a synthesis of ancient astronomy and Christianity, wouldn’t his project necessarily include pointing out what the astronomical bodies he’s referencing are?)

 

[HarryStotle]

Would you say that the message is directed at the “kings of the earth and the magnates and the generals and he rich and the powerful”? I’d suggest that it is not…

Not directly perhaps, but the message was there and not exactly hidden or “between the lines.” I am pretty certain it would have filtered to the kings and magnates and generals, et al., at some point.

Perhaps the message might have possibly come through in the astrological symbolism?

You’d think that even the astrologically minded among us would take to heart the not-so-subtle message about the futility of trusting signs from astrological bodies when they read these lines:

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich [and the astrologers] and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?”
(Revelation 6:12-17)

Of course, gathering rotting figs from the ground might be taken as a positively religious activity for some. I suppose fermenting fruit can have some benefits. But you’d think the blackening of the sun, the bloodying of the moon, the stars falling like figs from the sky, and the sky itself disintegrating like an old scroll would obviously signify the complete devaluation and decertification of the heavenly bodies as symbols or portents to be trusted.

Yet, here we are still considering the matter. On second thought, I suppose I am now forced to concede your point. Some will never get the implicit message, especially if it is presented indirectly or symbolically.

Note: That was my interpolation concerning astrologers in the passage from Revelation above, just in case some might have missed it

 

[HarryStotle]

I would argue that at least 16 astronomical references all just above the horizon on a key date of the year (the winter solstice) on Patmos aren’t coincidental.

…It has produced results.

I beg to differ. The 16 “astronomical references” are no longer “above the horizon.” They have fallen from the sky like figs from a fig tree and lie on the ground decomposing. Perhaps you are correct that the astronomical references weren’t “coincidental,” because they were intended to be shown to have the same significance as figs rotting on the ground after a winter gale has blown them from the tree.

 

[Kei]

I’d like to point out that it’s Revelation, not Revelations.
A lot of people make that mistake.

 

[TheButler]

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.”

I beg to differ. The 16 “astronomical references” are no longer “above the horizon.” They have fallen from the sky like figs from a fig tree and lie on the ground decomposing. Perhaps you are correct that the astronomical references weren’t “coincidental,” because they were intended to be shown to have the same significance as figs rotting on the ground after a winter gale has blown them from the tree.

The quotes reference the sixth seal which is the planet Saturn or in Greek mythology Cronus combined with Venus, Aphrodite. The reference to winter is because the date is the winter solstice as is the previous reference to snow. The previous seals in order are Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and Sun. Look up the symbols of the first four. They match the weapons. (Mercury’s is upside-down; he is the trickster but patron of commerce. The voice gives him a message.)

Cronus was god of the harvest. The figs should therefore already have been collected.

There is an earthquake. The only planet connected to the Earth is Saturn who in Greek is Cronus, a son of Gaia, Mother Earth. Cronus’ father was Uranus, ruler of the universe, whom Cronus castrated causing blood to be scattered hence the blood moon and the falling stars. Cronus used a giant scythe crafted by his mother from rock which connects to the mountains and rocks everyone hides under. From the blood of Uranus Aphrodite was born, Venus.

There are seven categories of men listed: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man which suggests Venus should also be included with Saturn so that the seventh seal can start afresh.

The scroll of the heavens rolls up: the scroll is the same scroll as that with the seals. The fact the scroll rolls up at the sixth seal also confirms that Venus is part of the sixth seal with Saturn. It rolls up which means the seventh seal is actually not key to the solution. In truth the seventh seal only goes to reinforce the first six.

 

[TheButler]

However, your assertions about John went far further. He’s an astronomer? He’s wealthy? He’s connected? Yet… he doesn’t write in classical Greek? He talks astrology but doesn’t mention the names that his contemporaries would understand? (After all, if he’s attempting a synthesis of ancient astronomy and Christianity, wouldn’t his project necessarily include pointing out what the astronomical bodies he’s referencing are?)

Matthew 7 15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits*. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 24 5-8
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew was written long before Revelation (at least 30 years). Does not Jesus warn of prophets in sheep’s clothing? Patmos and the seven churches are close to Troy. Revelation contains horses. The tale of the Trojan Horse would be well-known tying in with wolves in sheep’s clothing. Jesus also predicts rumours of wars, famine, earthquakes and pestilence which are themes in Revelation.

*Ye shall know them by their fruits. John refers to a fig tree in winter. Figs ripen in the autumn. If the tree were a good tree then the figs would have been gathered. They haven’t been. Therefore we ‘know John by his fruit’, it would seem.

Maybe John of Patmos was such a wolf? And as we know most con artists thrive on eventually being found out as it boosts their ego?

 

[Gorgias]

Patmos and the seven churches are close to Troy. Revelation contains horses.

But not wooden horses. I think you’re really stretching now…

Maybe John of Patmos was such a wolf? And as we know most con artists thrive on eventually being found out as it boosts their ego?

Revelation is a book of the Bible, and therefore, we believe it to be inspired by God. Are you really going to ask a Christian to believe that an inspired book of Scripture is written by a “con artist”?

 

[TheButler]

But not wooden horses. I think you’re really stretching now…

Metaphorically a “Trojan Horse” has come to mean any trick or stratagem that causes a target to invite a foe into a securely protected bastion or place.

Revelation is a book of the Bible, and therefore, we believe it to be inspired by God. Are you really going to ask a Christian to believe that an inspired book of Scripture is written by a “con artist”?

Paradoxical, isn’t it?

 

[Gorgias]

Paradoxical, isn’t it?

Only if you think that inspired writers are ‘con artists’.

 

[HarryStotle]

Maybe John of Patmos was such a wolf? And as we know most con artists thrive on eventually being found out as it boosts their ego?

Actually, Patmos was far closer to Ephesus than it was to Troy. John was from Ephesus. He was the Bishop of the Church there for quite a time. Prior to that he was a fisherman from Galilee and the Beloved Apostle.

A designation of “wolf” is more likely to fit an Internet denizen two thousand years removed from Ephesus and Patmos, and free to concoct wild theories based upon loose and spurious connections than it would be of someone persecuted and tortured for their faith, and who personally knew Jesus Christ.

 

[Benadam]

I posted in a thread years ago here at CA that reminds me of this thread. A poster had gone to the trouble of counting the weeks from creation week to the first drop of rain of the flood. He did it using the various ages of the line of Adam as they document deaths and births. He included mathematical concepts that pertain to astronomy and navigation like siderial days and such, for precision, much of it over my head and only temporarily graspable for me.

The math resulted in a number of weeks from creation to flood that matched precisely the number of seconds in a day. I was impressed. For me, if true, it demonstrated the work of the Holy Spirit in Genesis. It revealed a sacred timing in the lives of those who handed down the true faith in the beginning. Not to mention a hidden definition of a day in the Sacred Scriptures.

To him though it was a means for the authors to protect the ‘document’ from future plagerism, and such. To him, what he discovered, if true, proved that the literature was not inspired or supernatural. That it was preserved incorrupt by natural means. It was evidence that Genesis was not inspired by God.

As I read the evidence of the OP, and I admit much of it is over my head, I can’t help but think the same thing as I did about the other poster years ago.
Supposing the astronomy is true. What a testimony to the truth of Revelation! Truth demonstrated to cosmic proportions. Supposing the astrology is true. What a testimony to the truth of Revelation! It demonstrates Christ Jesus is the true object of myth hidden within the Sacred Scriptures.

For me the evidence doesn’t demonstrate that the book is not inspired but very much the opposite.

 

[HarryStotle]

Gorgias:

But not wooden horses. I think you’re really stretching now…

Metaphorically a “Trojan Horse” has come to mean any trick or stratagem that causes a target to invite a foe into a securely protected bastion or place.

Revelation is a book of the Bible, and therefore, we believe it to be inspired by God. Are you really going to ask a Christian to believe that an inspired book of Scripture is written by a “con artist”?

Paradoxical, isn’t it?

Actually, it’s more ironical than paradoxical since you are using horses in Revelation as part of your Trojan horse whereby you use astronomy as the “trick or stratagem that causes a target to invite a foe into a securely protected bastion or place,” i.e., to undermine John’s place in Sacred Tradition.

 

[Fidveritas]

You, and probably she, should look into the setup of the old tabernacles, read up on the symbolism surrounding each of the 12 tribes of Israel, and actually give the Book of Ezekiel a clean, thorough read…