Revelation: Yea or Nah and Why?

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I believe you are trying to tell me what “inspiration and revelation” mean to you the Catholic.
Madrid is very clear that the word “inspiration” and the word “revelation” should not be used in the way you try to use it. I would think you are saying that anything guided by the Holy Spirit in any way is revelation/inspiration. This is not in alignment with the majority of Catholic teachings on this, but such is fine as long as it is clearly defined.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that Catholics believe the Holy Spirit is involved in the protecting of the deposit of faith. I am less interested in the definitions of words than you might think.
What I am saying is that Peter received revelation/inspiration (in the TOm/Patrick/Catholic theologians sense). The Council of Jerusalem was decided via revelation/inspiration (in the TOm/Patrick/Catholic theologians sense). The Pope and the 21 Ecumenical Councils don’t/haven’t/can’t receive revelation/inspiration (in the TOm/Patrick/Catholic theologian sense). Whatever protection the Holy Spirit provides for the Catholic Church, as understood by Catholic theologians, is not the same as the revelation/inspiration (in the TOm/Patrick/Catholic theologians sense) Peter and the Council of Jerusalem enjoyed. This is not just about being able to write scripture, but that is absolutely part of it (and that is absolute gone from the Catholic Church per Catholic teaching too).
If this ever is established and agreed upon, my follow on premise is that there is no inspired/revealed (in the TOm/Patrick/Catholic theologians sense) utterance evident in the Bible or sacred Tradition that delineates that God will no more lead His church via inspiration/revelation (in the TOm/Patrick/Catholic theologian sense). This becomes part of Catholic teaching as a result of the absence of inspiration/revelation (in the TOm/Patrick/Catholic theologian sense), not as a result of any positive assertion that this CHANGE in the way God leads his church will obtain in the real world.
Charity, TOm
You didn’t address what I said, but you are reading a non-Catholic interpretation into Madrid’s quotes. Further, you are using Catholic posters for what I still see as a performance.

You never answered, what is your underlying question.
 
Reuben,
My understanding of the Catholic faith is in substantial agreement with yours. I have a few points of clarification where we might diverge. And then point of addition.
You introduced that term which is foreign to Catholics. I do not agree with your statement.
I am not sure what the term was. “Public Revelation” is a Catholic term, is that what you meant?
There is also no mentioned of first century whatever, which is purely your assumption. Revelations are contained in the Deposit of Faith which came from Jesus. Apostles’ teaching and Tradition were thus handed down to them by the Lord…
My use of the term 1st Century was to suggest that the ministry of the Apostles ended at this time.
Your post here APPEARS to says something that I think you do not mean.
You do not mean that the “Deposit of Faith” came from Jesus to the Apostles solely by their human interactions in Palestine??? I expect not.
I believe that Catholics believe that the Apostles received revelation via means beyond their human contact with Jesus. Peter had visions. The writers of the New Testament were directly inspired by God to record what they recorded (not as automatons, but not as humans who try to recall what Jesus said 2 and 2000 days before). The Council of Jerusalem was decided by revelation/inspiration and the words recorder about it were revealed by God not merely the product of the memory of someone who happened to be there.
If it is Patrick Madrid’s work that is in contention, it is fine but what’s the use? We are just discussing one Catholic’s thought and that’s it.
I would agree Patrick Madrid is not infallible, but when he says “no inspiration” and “no revelation” we can qualify it by saying he is not speaking of “no private inspiration” and not speaking of “no private revelation,” but based on most things other than this message board I would say he is offering the Catholic view on these subjects and that outside of private inspiration/revelation there is no inspiration/revelation for the purpose of leading the Catholic Church.
(1) Pope’s infallibility is not absurd claim; it’s the doctrine and belief of the Church. This infallibility only pertains to faith and moral, and only when he speaks ex-cathedra.
(2) God’s promise was that He would be with His Church and that the Gate of Hell will not prevail. Thus the Church being assured of the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, principally the Popes.
(3) Popes are not impeccable. They sins and may lack in good character like everybody else and may give wrong teaching.
This is in prefect alignment with what I think Catholics believe.
Let’s use the word revelation as revelation from Jesus to the apostles, and inspired as being inspired by the Holy Spirit. For the sake of discussion, it would be easier if we separate them, rather than the usage of revelation/inspiration.
Thus there is NO new revelation other than from Jesus. The teaching of the apostles, them being disciples and therefore eyewitnesses, are basically ‘Jesus’ revelation’.
I agree with this except as I added above. The men who were apostles and who wrote scripture were inspired directly by God not just through their human interaction with the man Jesus.
It is clear that some Roman soldiers heard the words of Jesus. They could write them and relay them in a book. This would not be the inspiration evident in sacred scripture.

In addition to this, you do not acknowledge or deny a key addition I am claiming is part of the Catholic faith as understood by me and Patrick Madrid.
My claim is Peter received revelation from God. Peter was inspired by God. Peter’s preaching and writing came via direct and positive inspiration from the Holy Spirit in a way that no Pope enjoys/possesses today. This is the Catholic teaching. Do I understand the Catholic teaching correctly?
Charity, TOm
 
there is no further divine revelations because Jesus Himself is the fullness of all God can reveal to mankind.

the Life, Death and Resurrection, along with the Ascension left nothing more to be revealed.

on the other hand, the impact of the fullness of revelation that is Jesus has a unique bearing on each of the minds and hearts of those who believe and repent. that is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

those who knew Jesus personally received inspiration at a level unattainable by the later generations of Christians. that does not mean that later generations are not also receiving inspiration from the Holy Spirit in their hearts and minds as they practice living the faith fully revealed in the Lord.

but truly the answer is that after the Incarnation, there simply is nothing more that could even be revealed.
I think your posts about nails the definition in the Catechism

CCC said:
God has said everything in his Word
65 “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:
In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.
**There will be no further Revelation **
66 “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.
 
My claim is Peter received revelation from God. Peter was inspired by God. Peter’s preaching and writing came via direct and positive inspiration from the Holy Spirit in a way that no Pope enjoys/possesses today. This is the Catholic teaching. Do I understand the Catholic teaching correctly?
No.
 
Tom, what some non-Catholics, including LDS, fail to comprehend is that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a final Revelation but He is not a finite Revelation. He is the pinnacle of God’s Revelation and is unceasing. So, claiming Catholic believe Revelation stopped and does not exist is erroneous.

Our center is Jesus Christ, God’s perfect Word Revealed. So no, of course, a pope or any other person is not going to reveal something additional, because the Word of God is perpetually revealed and continues to be revealed. Particularly in liturgy, where the Word of God is revealed in multiple ways, including the Gospel readings, the Eucahrist, the priest, and all the baptized.

These are not new and innovative revelations, but the one Revelation of God’s Word.

So, please, stop with this claim of yours that there exists no Revelation in Catholic teaching or understanding. There is no new Revelation, as Jesus does not need to be renewed, reinvented or innovated. He is the object of Christian Revelation and the object of our faith.

The Church was given the gift of the Holy Spirit, at Pentecost, to guide the Church to all truth. Truth is not for us a lofty idea or a new ideology. Truth, is a Person, Jesus Christ. The entire mission of Christ’s Church is to being people to Christ.

If you prefer to call the guidance of the Holy Spirit, guidance only, fine, I don’t have a problem with that. But please keep your understanding grounded in the Catholic view of all things centered and sourced from Jesus Christ. He is our Prophet and the fulfillment of all prophecy.
 
Also, Tom. You can correct me if I’m wrong. But I think you are approaching revelation from the LDS perspective that “the heavens are closed”, and Joseph Smith opened heaven up again, and that is what you are trying to prove.

This is not the Catholic view. Here is a short synopsis of the Catholic understanding, and I’ll start with an example from the Bible.

Genesis 28:
12
Then he [Jacob] had a dream: a stairway rested on the ground, with its top reaching to the heavens; and God’s angels were going up and down on it.

John 1:51
And he [Jesus] said to him, “Amen, amen,I say to you, you will see the sky opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

Again, Jesus is the center of our understanding. But we have to go back, to the Fall and original sin where humanity was removed from the presence of God. In this sense, heaven was closed to us, but not in the meaning of God ceased to be interested in humanity.

God then " spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;" (Heb.1:1). The purpose of which was to reconcile humanity to Himself.

The advent of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of our reconciliation. The Word of God, now Revealed, puts us in a new era. A New Covenant. Where humanity is reconciled to God. He is our sole Mediator. Where the prophets of the OT died, and God would need to raise up a new prophet, Jesus lives and is our mediator between the Father and us, forever.

So, the purpose of the Church is to bring people to Christ. The means of our Salvation. The true Jacob’s Ladder. He opened heaven for humanity, and it will forever remain open. There is no need for a new prophet to be raised up in order to mediate between us and the Father. We have Jesus Christ.
 
Also, Tom. You can correct me if I’m wrong. But I think you are approaching revelation from the LDS perspective that “the heavens are closed”, and Joseph Smith opened heaven up again, and that is what you are trying to prove.

This is not the Catholic view. Here is a short synopsis of the Catholic understanding, and I’ll start with an example from the Bible.

Genesis 28:
12
Then he [Jacob] had a dream: a stairway rested on the ground, with its top reaching to the heavens; and God’s angels were going up and down on it.

John 1:51
And he [Jesus] said to him, “Amen, amen,I say to you, you will see the sky opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

Again, Jesus is the center of our understanding. But we have to go back, to the Fall and original sin where humanity was removed from the presence of God. In this sense, heaven was closed to us, but not in the meaning of God ceased to be interested in humanity.

God then " spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;" (Heb.1:1). The purpose of which was to reconcile humanity to Himself.

The advent of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of our reconciliation. The Word of God, now Revealed, puts us in a new era. A New Covenant. Where humanity is reconciled to God. He is our sole Mediator. Where the prophets of the OT died, and God would need to raise up a new prophet, Jesus lives and is our mediator between the Father and us, forever.

So, the purpose of the Church is to bring people to Christ. The means of our Salvation. The true Jacob’s Ladder. He opened heaven for humanity, and it will forever remain open. There is no need for a new prophet to be raised up in order to mediate between us and the Father. We have Jesus Christ.
That is the way I see it.
He is trying to sell a Mormon definition of revelation as Catholic and get Catholics to buy what he is selling.
I assume the next step in the proselyting effort would be point out how the Mormon definition is not found in Catholicism, so we should all become Mormon.
But the Mormon definition is not historical; or biblical as you point out.
The exchange in post #22 is also evidence, and Tom’s habit of ending a post with the Mormon definition and asking if he got the Catholic definition right.
 
You didn’t address what I said, but you are reading a non-Catholic interpretation into Madrid’s quotes. Further, you are using Catholic posters for what I still see as a performance.

You never answered, what is your underlying question.
I do not know how my interpretation is “non-Catholic.”
What do I mean, what does Patrick mean, what is the correct meaning?
I will ask this again in a few minutes.
First, I wrote but forgot to post the below response to Phil19034.
Charity, TOm
 
TOm, I am following your thinking so far… So what is your question? Can we get to the root regarding why you started this tread? I sense a question in here somewhere. 😃

What is it?

God Bless
My point from the OP was that the inspiration/revelation Peter received was of a different sort than the inspiration/revelation that Catholics believe the Pope receives.
This change is ONLY evidenced in the ceasing of revelation/inspiration (in this different way). This change is evident in Catholic history and is not evident in some revealed/inspired tenet that explains God will now change the way he leads his church.
In the OP I offered the premise that this change occurred and then asked why.
So far virtually every Catholic poster claims the change did not occur so we cannot get to why at all.
And in fairness, to claim and demonstrate the change didn’t occur (and Catholics do not believe the change occurred) would absolutely undermine my position on this.
I find the insistence that I must have misrepresented or misunderstood Patrick Madrid, Dave Armstrong, and the CCC to be offered with little support other than the anonymous authority of those who claim it. The single quote mustered from the CCC in my opinion aligns well with my thesis and doesn’t undermine it in the least.
If folks begin to acknowledge the change occurred, then they could begin to suggest that God revealed to 1st Century inspired folks that it was going to happen (maybe even explaining why). If this revelation was clear and something that I felt compelled to embrace, it would seem that my view that “something there once is now missing” is true but of little value.
An analogy might be that I claimed Jews killed their God and thus there is no divine omnipotence because a group of 1st century Jews overpowered God. A group of Jews argue that I am wrong, no such execution of God happened. Later some group of Jews/Christians acknowledge that I am right about the killing of God, but wrong about the impact it has upon omnipotence. They muster Old and New Testament texts that I embrace to show that God gave up His life and was not overpowered. They might even explain that the “why” of this is so that the atonement can forgive my sins. A truly amazing thing!!!
Returning from the analogy, I know of no Old and New Testament texts that can be mustered to show that what happened to revelation was foreshadowed, expected, served a purpose or … Clement of Alexandria in the 3rd century observes that revelation ended, but I would suggest this is a historical fact not a revealed truth that is part of Sacred Tradition.
But, we cannot get to an agreement on it happening.
Charity, TOm
 
I do not know how my interpretation is “non-Catholic.”
What do I mean, what does Patrick mean, what is the correct meaning?
I will ask this again in a few minutes.
First, I wrote but forgot to post the below response to Phil19034.
Charity, TOm
Frankly, I don’t know what it is you want. Your reasoning is circular to me. Catholics freely acknowledge that the fullness of revelation is found in Jesus Christ. There is no new revelation, and thinking there must be denies that Jesus is God’s Word, fully revealed.

We understand Jesus is still the head of his Church, and the Apostles appointed successors who are given gifts of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church, No, they aren’t going to prophesy something new and different. What do think that would be or should be?

Don’t diminish our view of the gift of the Holy Spirit, even if it means nothing to you, God’s guidance is something that is sacred and important to us.
 
The full context of Patrick Madrid’s book (I think).
I finally found almost the entire few pages online. Here it is:
Papal infallibility is an absurd claim. Given all the lousy decision different popes have made, there’s no way they can be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Christ said the Holy Spirit would guide the Church in “all truth,” but clearly, many popes have lived lives that were far from truth and taught things that were false.
It’s amazing how many Catholics have actually fallen for this one. Non-Catholics can of course be excused when they get such a fundamental Catholic doctrine mixed up. If you read this particular argument closely, you will see that it is actually two falsehoods rather than one. The first is that infallibility somehow means the pope cannot sin, or is without sin. The second is that the pope, by virtue of his charism of infallibility, receives inspiration from God. Both notions are simply not true.
So what is papal infallibility? The dogma of papal infallibility was formally promulgated at the First Vatican Council in 1870. The council stated:
The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra - that is, when in discarge of the office of Pastor and Doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the Universal Church - by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of the infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of the consent of the Church.
Papal infallibility wasn’t “invented” in 1870, any more than the doctrine of the Trinity was “invented” in A.D. 325 at the Council of Nicea. That was when the Church determined that it should be formally defined, so as to eliminate any ambiguity or error about what, exactly, the doctrine meant.
There are several requirements for a dogmatic, infallible pronouncement:
  1. The pronouncement must be made by a lawful successor to Peter - in other words, a pope.
  2. The subject matter of the declaration must be in the area of faith or morals. It doesn’t fall within the pontiff’s ability to make infallible declarations on science, economics, history, or perhaps the weather.
  3. The pope must be speaking ex cathedra, that is, from the very seat and office of Peter. In this way, he must be specifically intending to proclaim a doctrine, binding the Church to its assent.
    If one or more of these points is missing, there is no infallible pronouncement. Most “examples” of papal errors offered by anti-Catholics emerge when they ignore this - that all three must be observed.
    The patristic testimony regarding papal infallibility developed and intensified over time. There are no explicit statements of the pope’s infallibility in the first few centuries, though there are many implicit statements and affirmations to that effect. Fr. J. Michael Miller, C.S.B. explains:
    According to the council Fathers , the weightiest argument for their teaching on papal infallibility was the witness provided by ecumenical councils. These references were included in the final version of chapter four [of the council document on papal infallibility, Pastor Aeternus]. As proofs for the Church’s longstanding teaching on papal infallibility, Pastor Aeternus selected statements from three councils: Constantinople IV (869-870), Lynos II(1274), and Florence (1439). Although the Orthodox no longer recognized such councils as truly ecumenical, churches from the East had participated in all three. For the drafters of Pastor Aeternus, each one attests to the pope’s infallible teaching authority.
    As requested by the Roman delegates, the Fathers at Constantinople IV all signed the profession of faith drawn up by Pope Hormisdas (514-523). The pope had sent the text to Constantinople in 515 in order to end the Acacian schism. This statement affirmed that “in the Apostolic See * the Catholic religion has been kept unsullied and its teaching kept holy.” . . .
    Lyons II asserted . . . “And, as she [Rome] is bound above all to defend the truth of the Faith, so too, if any questions should arise regarding the Faith, they must be decided by her judgment.”
    Many people misunderstand papal infallibility, thinking it is a sort of dogmatic weapon the pope can wield capriciously against the twin doctrinal rules of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition of the Church. Just the opposite is true. The charism of papal infallibility protects the Church, as well as the authority of Scripture and Tradition, by ensuring that the pope is prevented from misusing them and thereby formally teaching error.
    *
    cont …
 
Another common misconception confuses infallibility with inspiration. These two charisms are entirely different, though they have, when God willed it, coincided in the same person (e.g., St. Peter, who preached and wrote Scripture infallibly and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit). The charism of inspiration involves the Holy Spirit providing divine revelation to the recipient. Perhaps the best example of this is found in Scripture. The writers of the Gospels, for example, received in a mysterious way the revlation the Holy Spirit wanted them to set forth with pen and ink. Their human freedom and individual personalities were completely intact, even as God breathed into their minds the revelation He wanted them to Communicate. While the sacred writers, then, lent their own natural abilities to the job at hand, obtaining the Gospel message required no effort on their part - that information was given to them directly by the Holy Spirit. That is what we mean by “inspiraton.”
While inspiration gives information, infallibility protects information. It doesn’t provide the pope with the information he needs to teach (that comes through his own efforts to study and understand the deposit of Faith, just as it does for all other Christians here on earth), but it does make sure that when he does formally teach the doctrines of the Faith, he’ll do so without error. And finally, we should note that infallible pronouncements, whether they come from ecumenical councils or popes, never add to the body of revelation that was “Once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3), they just make more explicit what is already there.
At this point, I think it important to explain a bit what papal infallibility is not. First, it does not give the pope the answers to theoligical questions (as inspiration would), nor does infallibility guarantee that he will be proactive and teach what needs to be taught, when it should be taught, in the way it should be taught. Infallibility doesn’t mean that the pope is prompted by God to do or teach something. it doesn’t even guarantee that the pope, when he does teach, will be as effective or persuasive or clear as he should be in what he teaches. Papal infallibility guarantees none of these things. Rather, it is a guarantee that God the Holy Spirit will preserve the pope from formally teaching error.
Much like a steel guardrail that lines the outer edge of a twisty mountain road, put there to keep cars from going over a cliff, the gift of papal infallibility is a divine protection against the catastrophe of the Church careening over the precipice of heresy, even if the pope were to drive recklessly, or, as it were, to fall asleep at the wheel.
Infallibility has nothing what so ever to do with sin. Unfortunately, not everyone realizes that and therefore some people may say, or think things that are simply off target due to the common mistake of confusing infallibility and impeccability - sinelessness. Take St. Peter, for example. He was, at times, a sinful and weak man, yet he was called by God to teach infallibly, in his preaching and in the Scripture he wrote for the Church. In spite of his personal weaknesses, Peter had the charism of infallibility when he taught the Faith officially. The same is true of his successors.
All popes, even the saintly ones, have been sinners in need of God’s mercy and grace. Some, unfortunately, were heavy-duty sinners who seemed to give no thought to the eventual hellfire that awaited them if they refused to repent and change their wicked ways. But even their gross sinfulness didn’t change by one fraction the fact that, as popes, they enjoyed the charism of papal infallibility. They may have lived horrible lives, but they were prevented by this grace of the Holy Spirit from formally teaching error to the Church. Amazing, but true; and we should thank God for that kind of armor-plated protection! Even bad popes cannot wreck the papacy.
Honestly, it would be great if the pope did receive inspiration, direct revelation, from God. It would be marvelous if each pope who has ever sat on the Chair of Peter had been sinless and a model of sanctity for the world. If they had, so many things would have been so much easier. That kind of tidiness never seems to be a part of God’s plan. He works best when his grace works through our human weakness and frailty. Sinlessness as a quality of the popes has never happened. Rather, sinfulness, to some degree, high or low, has always been and will always be the norm for popes (just like the rest of us).
The fact is, the only pope who was inspired and who received revelation from God to be given to the whole Church was Simon Peter. After he went home to the heavenly reward, all the subsequent popes have had to do their job of teaching and preserving the deposit of faith the old fashioned way: They learned it.
 
If that was a post by that guy he doesn’t have a clue what hes talking about I can see right through the claims that man made and there’s no point to addressing them as far as I’m concerned because it’s a page of this guys false theories and knowledge about the Catholic church. No use running around the circles he makes… he just doesn’t get it and pretends to know more than Catholics do about our own Catholic faith… deception is his game to take away from the truths of the Catholic faith…
 
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TOmNossor:
It would be nice to read the continuation. I’ll see if the ebook is available.

At any rate, you’re still reading it as a Mormon, thinking that God left us as orphans because He doesn’t do what you want, or Patrick Madrid wants.

My view is, God gives us what we need, knows our needs better than ourselves, and does not withhold anything.

And before you go thinking that I’m talking about the LDS concept of line upon line, precept on precept, I’m not.

Our need is filled, entirely, in Christ! Please think seriously on that.
 
Reuben,
My understanding of the Catholic faith is in substantial agreement with yours. I have a few points of clarification where we might diverge. And then point of addition.

I am not sure what the term was. “Public Revelation” is a Catholic term, is that what you meant?
I could be wrong, but my guess is that his responses were placed incorrectly while he was editing quotes, because it seems that part and the next part of what he wrote, might have been reversed. Cutting and separating a large post can be a bit confusing and difficult to do.
My use of the term 1st Century was to suggest that the ministry of the Apostles ended at this time.
Your post here APPEARS to says something that I think you do not mean.
You do not mean that the “Deposit of Faith” came from Jesus to the Apostles solely by their human interactions in Palestine??? I expect not.

I believe that Catholics believe that the Apostles received revelation via means beyond their human contact with Jesus. Peter had visions. The writers of the New Testament were directly inspired by God to record what they recorded (not as automatons, but not as humans who try to recall what Jesus said 2 and 2000 days before). The Council of Jerusalem was decided by revelation/inspiration and the words recorder about it were revealed by God not merely the product of the memory of someone who happened to be there.
The Deposit of Faith mostly comes from Jesus’ own teachings to the Apostles. Some of it also came to the Apostles, or to their immediate followers who were personally taught by them, through the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is what is referred to as “public revelation”, because it comes from Jesus’ public ministry when He walked the earth teaching His Apostles. Anything after those eyewitnesses were gone, is not included in the Deposit of Faith. Only their teachings from Jesus, and their immediate followers, are included. This is why the Deposit of Faith cannot be changed or added to. It contains only the true teachings of Jesus, Himself, as He taught His disciples. Nothing else is necessary for our salvation. As St. John said, "[John 20:30] Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.".
But, many of the other lessons that He taught them are included in Sacred Tradition, which is the other major part of the Deposit of Faith. They are just as important as what is written in the New Testament.
I would agree Patrick Madrid is not infallible, but when he says “no inspiration” and “no revelation” we can qualify it by saying he is not speaking of “no private inspiration” and not speaking of “no private revelation,” but based on most things other than this message board I would say he is offering the Catholic view on these subjects and that outside of private inspiration/revelation there is no inspiration/revelation for the purpose of leading the Catholic Church.
What Reuben J is saying is that you are relying on one Catholic’s writings, taken out of context from a larger work, so it might be best to drop it, unless you can post a link to the entire page so we can all read it in context. (Amazon doesn’t show it)
I agree with this except as I added above. The men who were apostles and who wrote scripture were inspired directly by God not just through their human interaction with the man Jesus.
True, some of it was from the Holy Spirit, but most of what was written came directly from Jesus. He told them specifically that when the time came, they would remember all that He had taught them, so they could teach others. That was the whole point of His choosing followers, and spending so much time with them.
It is clear that some Roman soldiers heard the words of Jesus. They could write them and relay them in a book. This would not be the inspiration evident in sacred scripture.
Seriously? 🤷
In addition to this, you do not acknowledge or deny a key addition I am claiming is part of the Catholic faith as understood by me and Patrick Madrid.
My claim is Peter received revelation from God. Peter was inspired by God. Peter’s preaching and writing came via direct and positive inspiration from the Holy Spirit in a way that no Pope enjoys/possesses today. This is the Catholic teaching. Do I understand the Catholic teaching correctly?
Charity, TOm
That part of it, it seems, although you still don’t seem to realize that the most significant part of Peter’s knowledge came directly from the mouth of Jesus. And, you still seem to be under the impression that Catholics don’t believe the Holy Spirit still actively inspires faithful Catholics to the present day, which is a total misconception on your part. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are still with His Church, and always will be.
 
What’s amusing is that I already quoted extensively part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an official document, on the Catholic understanding of the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our leadership and the Church in general. Not sure why we need to obsess over what Patrick Madrid is saying. He very well could be wrong in his understanding (at least when he wrote that book). I have found absolutely nothing conflicting actual Catholic teaching (part of which I have posted in this thread) in what the Catholic posters in this thread have repeatedly stated.

I like this quote from Dei Verbum: Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation:

“God, who spoke of old, uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto all truth those who believe and makes the word of Christ dwell abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).”***

That’s right. God uninterruptedly converses with the Catholic Church, to this day. That is the Catholic belief.
 
What’s amusing is that I already quoted extensively part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an official document, on the Catholic understanding of the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our leadership and the Church in general. Not sure why we need to obsess over what Patrick Madrid is saying. He very well could be wrong in his understanding (at least when he wrote that book). I have found absolutely nothing conflicting actual Catholic teaching (part of which I have posted in this thread) in what the Catholic posters in this thread have repeatedly stated.

I like this quote from Dei Verbum: Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation:

“God, who spoke of old, uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto all truth those who believe and makes the word of Christ dwell abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).”***

That’s right. God uninterruptedly converses with the Catholic Church, to this day. That is the Catholic belief.
Yeah, it’s always a churning, brought on by not giving into the obvious.
 
What’s amusing is that I already quoted extensively part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an official document, on the Catholic understanding of the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our leadership and the Church in general. Not sure why we need to obsess over what Patrick Madrid is saying. He very well could be wrong in his understanding (at least when he wrote that book). I have found absolutely nothing conflicting actual Catholic teaching (part of which I have posted in this thread) in what the Catholic posters in this thread have repeatedly stated.

I like this quote from Dei Verbum: Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation:

“God, who spoke of old, uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto all truth those who believe and makes the word of Christ dwell abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).”***

That’s right. God uninterruptedly converses with the Catholic Church, to this day. That is the Catholic belief.
It was clear to me that Tom believes the Catechism provided the wrong answer. He wants to remain confused by trying to understand Catholic apologists from a Mormon world view.
Confusion equals wrong teaching.
Tom is confused
Therefore Christianity has wrong teaching.
 
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