Revelations 12:2

[JurisPrudens]

She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.*

We Catholics know that it is about Our Blessed Mother. As well as about the entire Church, of which Our Mother is the Image.

Then, what kind of pain of labours is this fragment talking about? We know that Our Blessed Mother was and remained Virgin. She was free of the pain of birth, put by God on Eve as a punishment. So, it could not be a physical pain? What then?

 

[Robyn_p]

I’ve always seen it as the pain she suffered during the crucifixion. It may not have been a physical pain, but any parent will tell you when their child suffers, they suffer with them.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

It is a metaphor for the Church. The Church is our mother, too. The Church suffers.

 

[Neofight]

We Catholics know that it is about Our Blessed Mother. As well as about the entire Church, of which Our Mother is the Image.

Then, what kind of pain of labours is this fragment talking about? We know that Our Blessed Mother was and remained Virgin. She was free of the pain of birth, put by God on Eve as a punishment. So, it could not be a physical pain? What then?

Not all share your premise that the pain of birth was the punishment put on Eve by God, and that the Blessed Mother was free of pain at birth.

St. Augustine claims that woman’s pain in childbirth was not the punishment for disobedience, but rather the loss of immortality (death) was the punishment.

He further contends that pain in childbirth is the result of woman’s loss of mortality. He explains that animals experience pain in childbirth, precisely for that reason; that they are mortal.

The Blessed Mother, although born without original sin, was not immortal. Although scripture does not, Sacred Tradition tells us that Mary did indeed die prior to her assumption into heaven.

PEACE AND ALL GOOD!

 

[oliver927]

The New American Bible, Revised Edition. Genesis 3:16 (bolding is mine)

To the woman he said:
I will intensify your toil in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Yet your urge shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you

God is intensifying the toil in childbearing. To intensify the toil, there had to be toil to begin with, and thus was not a result of original sin. That is at least how I read it.

Also, maybe this is nit picking, but there is no “s” at the end of Revelation. It is a singular revelation, not plural. “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John…”

 

[kyrie03]

We Catholics know that it is about Our Blessed Mother. As well as about the entire Church, of which Our Mother is the Image.

Then, what kind of pain of labours is this fragment talking about? We know that Our Blessed Mother was and remained Virgin. She was free of the pain of birth, put by God on Eve as a punishment. So, it could not be a physical pain? What then?

From the writings of Ven Mary of Agreda in “The Mystical City of God” Volume 1, she explains the vision John saw of the Woman clothed with the sun to be Mary. The Fathers of the Church also saw Holy Mother the Church to fit the description. (God likes to work with the number 3: the test for the angels was the vision of the Woman, Mary gave birth to Jesus, and our Mother the Church gives birth to spiritual children). Here is information explaining what the pains of childbirth refer to:

“And was in pain to be delivered.” He does not say this because She was to give birth in bodily pain, for that is not possible in this divine Parturition. But because it was to be a great sorrow for that Mother to see that divine Infant come forth from the secrecy of her virginal womb in order to suffer and die as a victim for the satisfaction of the sins of the world. For this Queen could know and did know all this beforehand by her knowledge of the holy Scriptures. On account of the natural love of such a Mother for such a Son, She must be deeply afflicted thereby, although in subjection to the will of God. In this pain was also foreshadowed the sorrow of this most gentle Mother at the thought of being deprived of the presence of her Treasure, after He should have issued from her virginal womb; for although her soul always enjoyed his presence as to his Divinity, yet She was to be a long time without his bodily presence, according to which He was exclusively her Son. The Most High had determined to exempt Her from guilt, but not from the labors and sorrows corresponding to the reward, which was prepared for Her. Thus the sorrows of this birth were not the effect of sin, as they are in the descendants of Eve, but they were the effect of the intense and perfect love of the most holy Mother for her divine Son. All these mysteries were motives of praise and admiration for the good angels and the beginning of punishment for the bad angels.ecatholic2000.com/agreda/vol1/vol1.shtml

 

[Mintaka]

In St. Augustine’s time, it was still permissible to speculate that Mary suffered labor pains. But even back then, the tradition of the Church overwhelmingly said that she did not, and that therefore something was going on with Revelation 12:2. And frankly, Augustine didn’t believe that she suffered either, since he was one of the primary people to spread the teaching that Jesus came out of Mary “like sunlight through glass,” in exactly the same way that He passed through the doors of the disciples’ meeting place when the doors were locked tight.

It is official Church doctrine now that Mary did not suffer labor pains.

The usual explanation from very early times is that the Woman crowned with stars is symbolic of Daughter Zion, of Mary, and of the Church, all tied together. The passage is reminiscent of the story of Jesus’ birth, but it obviously isn’t the same story, given that the Man Child is taken away by God into Heaven, and the Woman flies away on eagle’s wings!

Revelation says, again and again, that the believer who overcomes and persists until the end will be given a rod of iron to rule the nations. That’s the Man Child. He looks a lot like Jesus, because the believer is a lot like Jesus. But his story is not the same as Jesus’ story.

The Woman cries out giving birth to him, because the Church has a hard time turning pagans into Christians! (And poor Mary must suffer the most in the process, because boy do people say some nasty stuff about her…)

God snatches the newborn “baby Christian” into His protection at the Christian’s birth as a Christian, at Baptism.

And the Woman flies away safely into hiding, because God protects the Church from being entirely destroyed by the Devil, no matter how much he hates her for creating new Christians through conversion and Baptism.

 

[Todd977]

We Catholics know that it is about Our Blessed Mother. As well as about the entire Church, of which Our Mother is the Image.

Then, what kind of pain of labours is this fragment talking about? We know that Our Blessed Mother was and remained Virgin. She was free of the pain of birth, put by God on Eve as a punishment. So, it could not be a physical pain? What then?

Probably the same metaphorical labor pains St Paul experienced for the Galatians:
My little children, for whom I am again in the pain of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, (Galatians 4:19)

 

[oliver927]

It is official Church doctrine now that Mary did not suffer labor pains.

Please provide a reference for this.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Please provide a reference for this.

Did the Virgin Mary suffer Pain in Childbirth? There is a magisterial teaching on this subject, but it seems to be non-infallible. There is no infallible definition on this point.

Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent: “To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain.” [Creed, Article III]
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed03.htm

The Roman Catechism is an official catechism of the Magisterium, which incorporates the then-recent teachings of the Council of Trent into the full body of Church teachings.

 

[Mintaka]

Catechism of the Council of Trent:

"It was said to Eve, “In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children.” Mary was exempt from this law; for preserving her virginal integrity

[integrity in the sense of wholeness - meaning her hymen]

inviolate, she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain."

This is a pretty late citation for a pretty early doctrine. I’ll try and find some more for you, but you asked for official statements from the top instead of citations from the Fathers and Doctors. Anything you see from the East is going to talk a bunch about the joy and freedom from pain of the Theotokos, so both lungs of the Church agree on this one.

If you’ve ever seen an early Christian or medieval picture of the Nativity, you have probably noticed that Mary looks pretty perky, rested, and serene for a woman who just gave birth. That’s on purpose - because the artist is showing that she didn’t feel any pain. The same thing is true of old Christmas carols, if you look at them carefully. Only modern songs talk about Mary being in pain, because modern songwriters have not been taught much theology.

Jesus’ birth was miraculous, and allowed Mary to remain a virgin physically, during and after the birth. God making it happen without labor pains is a piece of cake, compared to the bit about keeping Mary a virgin both in partu and post partum, or of having parthenogenesis that produces a boy child.

 

[Neofight]

Please provide a reference for this.

Yeah…my thoughts too…it is not doctrine, it was subcribed to by Aquinas, and many others, but has been debated, mainly over the contention that original sin was not the cause but mortality was as a result of the falll…regardless, it is not official doctrine.

There is a difference between teaching and doctrine.

And “official statements” (whatever that means) are not doctrinal either.

PEACE AND ALL GOOD!

 

[Mintaka]

No, it is official doctrine. It’s not dogma, but it is sure as heck official doctrine.

 

[Mintaka]

I forgot to say that the above quote from the Catechism of the Council of Trent (aka the Roman Catechism) was from “The Creed,” Article III.

Mary’s lack of pain in childbirth is not talked about a lot, because it’s a delicate subject that’s not easy to bring up in a homily at Mass. (“Mommy, what does he mean, physical virginity? What’s a labor pain?”) But it has been a constant belief that has been constantly taught by the Church.

The miraculous birth of Christ shows dramatically that He was God as well as Man at all times, not just gaining His powers and omniscience later in life. (Maybe this is another reason that moderns don’t like His virgin and painless birth?) His Nativity also foreshadowed His emergence from the tomb, and His miraculous appearance in the Upper Room while the doors were all locked.

Here’s another official quote, a prayer from the Votive Mass of “Mary at the Foot of the Cross.” As they say, Lex orandi, lex credendi – the law of prayer is the law of belief:

“In your divine wisdom, you planned the redemption of the human race, and decreed that the new Eve should stand by the cross of the new Adam: as she became his mother by the power of the Holy Spirit, so, by a new gift of your love, she was to be a partner in his Passion, and she who had given him birth without the pains of childbirth was to endure the greatest of pains in bringing forth to new life the family of your Church.”

There’s a nice Middle English poem with Jesus speaking to Mary at the foot of the Cross, that puts it rather neatly:

“Moder, rewe of modres care
Now thou wost of modres fare,
Thogh thou be clene mayden-man.”

(“Mother, take pity on mothers’ care,
Now that you know how mothers fare [ie, go through pain]
Although you are a pure maiden human.”)

Since I mentioned the East, though, I will quote one of the Eastern Fathers of the Church:

“His birth was in accordance with the laws of parturition, while in that it was painless it was above the laws of generation. For as pleasure did not precede it, pain did not follow it; according to the prophet who says, “Before she was in labor, she brought forth,” and again, “before her pain came she was delivered of a man-child” (Isaiah 66:7).”

(St. John Damascene, On the Orthodox Faith, Book IV, chapter 14)

 

[Mintaka]

Here’s the passage from Isaiah that St. John Damascene mentioned:

"Hear the word of the Lord, you that tremble at His word:

"Your brethren that hate you and cast you out for My Name’s sake, have said: “Let the Lord be glorified, and we shall see in your joy;” but they shall be confounded.

"A voice of the people from the city, a voice from the Temple, the voice of the Lord that renders recompense to His enemies.

**"Before she was in labor, she brought forth; before her time came to be delivered, she brought forth a man child.

"Who has ever heard of such a thing? and who has seen the like to this?**

"Shall the earth bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be brought forth at once? Because Zion has been in labor, and has brought forth her children.

"Shall not I, Who make others bring forth children, Myself bring forth?" says the Lord.
“Shall I, Who give generation to others, be barren?” says the Lord your God."

(Isaiah 66:5-9.)

 

[EtMiserereMei]

I’ve always seen it as the pain she suffered during the crucifixion.

This.

There is a Tim Staples article that’s relevant to this discussion (link).

Not only does Tim argue that the literal sense of Revelation 12 is that the woman is Mary, he answers the “travail” objection many have posed. To quote him:

Two points in response:

1. No matter which interpretation you choose—Israel, the Church, Mary, or all of the above—all interpretations agree: the labor pains of Rev. 12:2 are not literal pains from a child passing through the birth canal. This really should not be a problem at all.
2. From the very beginning of Mary’s calling to be the Mother of the Messiah, she would have most likely known her Son was called to be the “suffering servant” of Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, and Wisdom 2.

Read the rest in the article.

Also, I’m not sure, OP, if you’re familiar with Taylor Marshall, but he did a series on Revelation for his podcast. You can find the episode on Revelation 12 here: taylormarshall.com/2015/07/084-revelation-chapter-12-our-lady-of-the-apocalypse-catholic-apocalypse-part-7.html

 

[oliver927]

Thank you Ron Conte and Mintaka for the information.