Revelations 9, 13-15

[jimmy85]

I was taught as a catholic to read the bible under the church, and with their explanations and within their points of view.

Revelatiosn 9, 13-15 says:

13

Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the gold altar before God,

14

telling the sixth angel who held the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the banks of the great river Euphrates.”

15

So the four angels were released, who were prepared for this hour, day, month, and year to kill a third of the human race.

I have went to several sources of catholic explanations and many refer to the trumpets to depict the punishment of the jewish people that dosent converted to Christ. this plagues are similar to the plages of Egipt, of the book of Ezekiel 38-39, and of other popluar books on the bible.

However on Revelatiosn 9, 15 It says, that there were four angles who were released to destroy the third of the human race.

Can someone tell me their though about the meaning of Revelations 9,15?

I appreciate your answers thanks.

 

[lak611]

From the Haydock Commentary, "Ver. 13. At the sounding of the sixth trumpet, are said to be loosed the four angels bound in the river Euphrates. By these four angels, and the two hundred millions of horsemen, many understand the devils and their instruments, men incited by them in antichrist’s time, to make war and persecute the Church of Christ, who shall destroy a third part, that is, a great part of men then in the world. Divers others apply this to the Persians, the successors of the Parthians, who about the middle of the third age [century], in the time of Valerian, a great persecutor of the Christians, passed the Euphrates, which used to be the bounds of the Roman empire to the east, defeated, took, and kept Valerian prisoner, which by its consequences gave a great stroke to the Roman
empire. See the bishop of Meaux, Pere Alleman, &c. (Witham)

Ver. 15. And the four angels were loosed. This seems to indicate the moment in which Satan himself is loosed from the abyss or hell, where, as we shall see [in] Apocalypse xx. 2. he was chained up for a thousand years. This is the time of antichrist, whose coming, as St. Paul says, is according to the working of Satan. (2 Thessalonians ii. 9.) The antichristian period is described by the ancient Fathers as the most dreadful of all; and the Apocalypse plainly shews it to be so, as we shall see. But we have this comfort, that his time will be short. He must be loosed a little time. (Apocalypse xx. 3.)"

 

[spauline]

I was taught as a catholic to read the bible under the church, and with their explanations and within their points of view.

Revelatiosn 9, 13-15 says:

13

Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the gold altar before God,

14

telling the sixth angel who held the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the banks of the great river Euphrates.”

15

So the four angels were released, who were prepared for this hour, day, month, and year to kill a third of the human race.

I have went to several sources of catholic explanations and many refer to the trumpets to depict the punishment of the jewish people that dosent converted to Christ. this plagues are similar to the plages of Egipt, of the book of Ezekiel 38-39, and of other popluar books on the bible.

However on Revelatiosn 9, 15 It says, that there were four angles who were released to destroy the third of the human race.

Can someone tell me their though about the meaning of Revelations 9,15?

I appreciate your answers thanks.

Oh, hell yeah, I got thoughts on this. In short, I see the trumpets as a type of the Illuminative phase of the saint, applied to Church history, specifically its doctrinal development. hence, the “144,000” who have the Seal of God in the “forehead” are a symbol of the Catholic elect who, in every age, are not “harmed” in their “foreheads”, that is, in their minds, or intellects, in the sense that only faithful Catholics can have the assurance of all truths that Christ wills us to know, without any “harm” of error. hence, the trumpets are symbols of gradual punctuated attacks on the witness of the Church to the truth, culminating with the total antithesis of the Seal of God, the “Mark of the Beast,” which brings its victims into total doctrinal depravity, the negation of all sources of truth that Christ has given us: the Trinity and Incarnation, the Pope, the rest of Bishops and Oral Tradition, the Written Tradition (Scripture), and finally even Reason itself.

In my symbolism, based on my personal theory of the “five loaves and two fish” being a symbol of the seven sacraments, and how disunity thrust into Christ’s body by heresy partitions the sacraments into one group of five and one group of two, namely, the heretics retain only two sacraments, Baptism and Marriage, on this basis, I argue that two, amongst other possibilities, can become a numerical symbol of heresy. In that vein, to make a long story short, the final three trumpets, or “woes” are

I. Protestantism
II. The Enlightenment
III. The Modern Secular Apostasy

In this vien, then, the five and two analogy applies to the last three trumpets as follows:

I. In the fifth trumpet, which is Protestantism, the victims do not “die” spiritually for they retain the sanctifying grace that is common to most material heretics, but since they lose FIVE sacraments, it is like they are “tortured” for “five months”, one for each month for each sacramental life of grace they lose.

II. In the sixth trumpet, or “Enlightenment”, the victims actually “die” spiritually, symbolizing the supernatural death that took place in the enlightenment, where religion was brought down to the merely natural level (that is, the deists and rationalists, respectively, deny both supernatural intervention and supernatural revelation from God). Also, the number two applies again: the literal rendering of the army that “kills” is “myriads of myriads”, which, since a myriad is commonly seen as 10,000 in the Bible, and since the plural of a noun implies two of it if no quantifier is specified, the number is then (implies as) *two ten thousands of ten thousands, *and keeping in mind Biblical theology already understands ten as a symbol of the world, the number can be factored as follows:

(2 X 10 X 1000) X (10 X 1000)

which, with 2 being a symbol of heresy, this becomes:

heresies [2] of the world [10] pluralified [1000]

followed by
pure worldliness [10] pluralified [1000]

and this matches the history: in the first part of the Enlightenment, the deists and rationalists introduces myriads of “worldly heresies” (again, because religion had been stripped of its supernatural essence and brought down into a merely natural goodness of infidelity). In second part of the Enlightenment, there is even the loss of religion, which is then replaced just plain worldliness, for consider that the intellect was diverted even away from religion and toward merely scientific concerns, as well as the age of neo pagan nationalism, which is indeed worldly, and which culminated with the two WW’s.

… continued next post

 

[spauline]

… continued from above…

III. Finally, the False Prophet has “two” horns, like a Lamb, who has seven, symbolizing the total, ultimate heresy that exists in the modern secular apostasy makes a plagairizing mockery of even what two sacraments are left in heresy. But I’ve spouted enough, if you want the full analysis, read the following:

The Seal, the Mark and Everything in Between

Blessings to you, jimmy!
scott

 

[jimmy85]

You mentioned the “144,000” who have the Seal of God in the “forehead”.

I dont want to enter into different point of view about the scriptures.
I read those 144,000 are the symbolical number of the jews from Israel that converted to chistianism by the ministery and by the preaching of Jesus.

I think most of the trumpets has to do with the Jewish war against the Roman empire, when the Second Temple of Jerusalen was destroyed.
It happened in the years 66- 70 .

and"Almost the entire Jewish race was anihilated by the Romans and by different calamityes".

This occured just about 30 years of the death of Jesus, it was when the jews abandoned their alliance with God.
If one study the history of this war one could understand several stuffs about revelations.

Many scholars are lead to think this because, The end of the book of revelations talks about the establishment of the church as a historical fact at the end of the book.

The bride of the Lord is the church.
This happened with the fall of Babylonia.

Babylonia on revelations means the Roman empire

On the first epistle of Peter 5,13 He refers to Rome as Babylonia, the city in which there is power and idolatry.

The whore on chapter 17, surrounded by the 7 mointains is The Roman empire. she drinks the blood of the Martyrs. she was dresing a purple cloth , purple was the color of the cloth of the emperor, etc

In a way, Idolatry is a prostitution of the religion. and the roman empire was the biggest city of the idolatry.

I think revelations has some relationships with the past history of the Jewish War “The 2nd destroction of the Temple” and with the struggle of the Martyrs to establish Cristianism on the world. and I dont think everything on Revelations is entirely a future event.

 

[spauline]

You mentioned the “144,000” who have the Seal of God in the “forehead”.

I dont want to enter into different point of view about the scriptures.
I read those 144,000 are the symbolical number of the jews from Israel that converted to chistianism by the ministery and by the preaching of Jesus.

I think most of the trumpets has to do with the Jewish war against the Roman empire, when the Second Temple of Jerusalen was destroyed.
It happened in the years 66- 70 .

and"Almost the entire Jewish race was anihilated by the Romans and by different calamityes".

This occured just about 30 years of the death of Jesus, it was when the jews abandoned their alliance with God.
If one study the history of this war one could understand several stuffs about revelations.

Many scholars are lead to think this because, The end of the book of revelations talks about the establishment of the church as a historical fact at the end of the book.

The bride of the Lord is the church.
This happened with the fall of Babylonia.

Babylonia on revelations means the Roman empire

On the first epistle of Peter 5,13 He refers to Rome as Babylonia, the city in which there is power and idolatry.

The whore on chapter 17, surrounded by the 7 mointains is The Roman empire. she drinks the blood of the Martyrs. she was dresing a purple cloth , purple was the color of the cloth of the emperor, etc

In a way, Idolatry is a prostitution of the religion. and the roman empire was the biggest city of the idolatry.

I think revelations has some relationships with the past history of the Jewish War “The 2nd destroction of the Temple” and with the struggle of the Martyrs to establish Cristianism on the world. and I dont think everything on Revelations is entirely a future event.

Hello,

well, no, I didn’t at all mean that my personal views would be the ONLY meaning possible.

Passages of Scripture can have several layers of meaning all at once. So everything you say is legitimate in its own right, and perhaps more scholarly based on the history that is now clear. I’m just putting forth an application in the sense of spiritual historicism, not at all to say that preterism is not also true in its own right.

 

[walt2000]

I was taught as a catholic to read the bible under the church, and with their explanations and within their points of view.

Revelations 9, 13-15 says:

13

Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the gold altar before God,

14

telling the sixth angel who held the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the banks of the great river Euphrates.”

15

So the four angels were released, who were prepared for this hour, day, month, and year to kill a third of the human race.

I have went to several sources of catholic explanations and many refer to the trumpets to depict the punishment of the Jewish people that doesn’t converted to Christ. this plagues are similar to the plagues of Egypt, of the book of Ezekiel 38-39, and of other popular books on the bible.

However on Revelations 9, 15 It says, that there were four angles who were released to destroy the third of the human race.

Can someone tell me their though about the meaning of Revelations 9,15?

I appreciate your answers thanks.

You are mixing two thunders here.

Re.10-11/13,and the WITNESSES and Re.12-15 EARTH. READ THEM AS TWO STORIES.WHEN WE ARE UNDER THE PROTECTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.HARVEST TIME.THE WINE PRESS.The bride, The next is CHRIST’S VICTORY.

 

[walt2000]

sorry two of these popped up.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

chart things which are.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Things thu seen. walt2000

 

[walt2000]

thing which are.walt2000

 

[COPLAND_3]

However on Revelatiosn 9, 15 It says, that there were four angles who were released to destroy the third of the human race.

Can someone tell me their though about the meaning of Revelations 9,15?

I appreciate your answers thanks.

I like St. Hippolytus’ explanation, he says,

It is not of angels he says that they are to go to war, but that four nations are to arise out of the region which is by Euphrates, and to come against the earth, and to war with mankind. But this that he says, four angels, is not alien from Scripture. Moses said, When He dispersed the sons of Adam, He set the boundary of the nations according to the number of the Angels of God [Deut. xxxii. 8 (LXX.)].

Since therefore nations have been assigned to angels, and each nation pertains to one angel, John rightly declared by the Revelation a loosing for those four angels: who are the Persians, and the Medes, and the Babylonians, and the Assyrians. Since then these angels who have been appointed over the nations have not been commanded to stir up those who have been assigned to them, a certain bond of the power of the word is indicated, which restrains them until the day shall arrive and the Lord of all shall command. And this then is to happen when Antichrist shall come.’

Oecumenius suggested that the 4 angels are Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael from Jude 9; Dan. 8:16; 4 Ezra 4:1; Tobit 3:17. Tyconius believes that the 4 angels are demons who are “adversaries that God will command to be loosed for the testing of His Church.” St. Andrew believed that they were the most evil demons who were bound at the coming of Christ, but they will be loosed to fight against not only the Christians but also against eachother. Primasius believes that them beeing released indicates the beginning of the persecution.

Nicolas of Lyra gives a historic interpretation, he says…

“Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” That is, in the Roman Empire, which is called the great river because of the great number of peoples living there; therefore it says in Chapter 17: “The waters…are people and multitudes…”(17:15). It is also called the Euphrates, because, just as the Euphrates is the fourth river of paradise(Gen. 2:14), so also among the four principal kingdoms, the Roman Kingdom is called the 4th(Dan. 2:40). In this Empire the 4 angels, namely, Laurentius, Symmachus, Anastatius, and Theodoric, were legates who were held back before the election of Laurentius, inasmuch as they ceased from disturbing the Church. When he was elected, however, they were incited to trouble the Church as has been said above, and therefore it is added: v.15. “So the 4 angels were released, who had been held for the hour,” Namely, to throw the Church continuously into confusion. One should know that by supporting Laurentius, Paschasius did not intend this confusion, but because he was followed and despite his intention gave his voice to the election of Laurentius, therefore, it is said concerning Laurentius “so 4 angels were released…” That through his ambition the other 3 proceeded to attack the Church. To Kill a 3rd of humankind. This third part indicates the Catholics, as was said above, which in great part was killed by the evil adherent of Laurentius and similarly by those adhering to Symmachus; partly by the heretical emperor, Anastatius, who sent many bishops into exile and afflicted many Catholic; partly by Theodoric, the Arian king, who wished to destroy all Italy insofar as they were orthodox. He martyred St. John, the pope, and Symmachus and Boetius-most distinguished men and consuls as it is reported in the Legend of St. John Pope and Martyr.

 

[walt2000]

See where the four angles appear on the chart I gave you, and read horizontally.That is your answer.In Rev.left and right.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Four horses are Four spirits that roam the earth.
Four angels are four spirits that roam the earth.walt2000
Just different thunders.

 

[walt2000]

Rev.22/18 you guys are braking that rule.walt2000

 

[ryanoneil]

I believe it describes the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., but that fulfillment could be pointing to a future final fulfillment at the end of time.

Either way these verses are highly symbolic. The “cavalry” alone is two hundred million strong! (9:16) Since the cavalry is a small percentage of an army, imagine the size of the army itself! That army would encompass every male alive today, if the cavalry was 1/30th the size of the entire army.

Does that mean the third of the human race they are going to kill is all women and children? I don’t think so, especially in light of (9:20). It makes better sense as a symbolic number. (which is an overwhelming force)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[spauline]

I like St. Hippolytus’ explanation, he says,
Oecumenius suggested that the 4 angels are Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael from Jude 9; Dan. 8:16; 4 Ezra 4:1; Tobit 3:17. Tyconius believes that the 4 angels are demons who are “adversaries that God will command to be loosed for the testing of His Church.” St. Andrew believed that they were the most evil demons who were bound at the coming of Christ, but they will be loosed to fight against not only the Christians but also against eachother. Primasius believes that them beeing released indicates the beginning of the persecution.

Nicolas of Lyra gives a historic interpretation, he says…

Don’t you understand, Copland, that the further we progress in Church history, the deeper and more meaningful become our interpretations.

The above interps are far too specific, and largely temporal.

In the bigger picture, with the mystics, we know what remains in Church history spiritually. Hence, finally, this time in Church history, the fuller implications of these texts are reachable, and clearly, such meanings must be based on spiritual history, for it is spiriutal conditions that drive history. The troubles in the Early pre-Dark Ages pale to modern times. In the bigger picture, the greater spiriutal disturbances of Islam, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and the Enlightenment, and the Modern Apostasy, are what is in the bigger picture. We must look at history through a spiritual lense, not temporal, and be so specific.

 

[COPLAND_3]

spauline,

Notice, that I gave more than one interpretation, which is something that I used to not be so williing to do when I was a Baptist. Just as Scripture has different senses, I find myself appreciating sound interpretations from a number of different angles, especially from exegetes that I quoted. By me quoting them was not my way of saying that that is the only way to look at that passage, but those interpretations are ways that you can apply them. Like Dr. Scott Hahn has said, it is not either/or. I guess that is why I enjoy a catena, which is something that I have worked on, as you will find on my site for Revelation 1-6. I don’t like to limit myself to just one or two possiblities of a passage of Scripture where Catholic exegesis allows one to open up many mysteries in one passage.

 

[spauline]

spauline,

Notice, that I gave more than one interpretation, which is something that I used to not be so williing to do when I was a Baptist. Just as Scripture has different senses, I find myself appreciating sound interpretations from a number of different angles, especially from exegetes that I quoted. By me quoting them was not my way of saying that that is the only way to look at that passage, but those interpretations are ways that you can apply them. Like Dr. Scott Hahn has said, it is not either/or. I guess that is why I enjoy a catena, which is something that I have worked on, as you will find on my site for Revelation 1-6. I don’t like to limit myself to just one or two possiblities of a passage of Scripture where Catholic exegesis allows one to open up many mysteries in one passage.

well, no, i agree, what is rather the problem is which ones you consider to be MORE IMPORTANT than others. From which, I reiterate, the interpretations you posted above are clearly LESS important than broader SPIRITUAL interpretations.

 

[COPLAND_3]

well, no, i agree, what is rather the problem is which ones you consider to be MORE IMPORTANT than others. From which, I reiterate, the interpretations you posted above are clearly LESS important than broader SPIRITUAL interpretations.

I agree with you in much of what you say about interpreting Revelation in a bigger picture sort of approach, since my personality favors that quality. My wife is the opposite, she is a person who is great on fine details, but she rarely can see the big picture on her own, whereas I am horrible with details unless I have documentation on hand, but I am usually pretty good at connecting the dots and seeing the big picture. But put us together and we mesh really well. My quality is no better than hers, and hers is no better than mine.

I don’t have many issues with the broader sense of interpreting Revelation, unless I limit myself to that only. Some things can be explained with such a broad meaning that many of the hidden mysteries are overlooked.

I think one of the greatest “could have beens” would be if St. Thomas Aquinas had written a commentary on Revelation! What a treasure that would have been! He wrote some dynamic commentaries on Scripture, deep stuff, not for beginners! But it does not take long to realize that he always consulted the Fathers of Church, and he usually gave different interpretations of the Fathers to explain the meaning of a passage of Scripture, unless of course it was contrary to Catholic Doctrine. I am no St. Thomas, I am not even worthy to lick his boots, but I try to practice as much as possible to find the meaning of Scripture by following his footsteps by digging into the treasure chest of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. I strongly believe that is the most orthodox way to go.