Revelations 9, 13-15

[COPLAND_3]

I do want to weigh in on the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. 7:4, since it has been mentioned in this thread.

As for the Fathers and Doctors go, here is a critique.

144,000 are the Church
St. Augustine claims that the number **signifies the whole body of saints **(Christian Doctrine 3.35).

St. Bede likewise, **this definite number is signified the innumerable multitude of the whole Church **(Commentary of Rev.).

St. Methodius understands it to be the Church (Banquent of the 10 Virgins 678)

Nicolas of Lyra understands that it is those who are the regenerated in Christ (Commentary on Rev.).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to indicate the Church in 2159.

144,000 are Jews only
Oecumenius says that **they are from the Jews who believed in Christ **(Commentary on Rev.).

St. Victorinus understands it the same as Oecumenius.

 

[walt2000]

144,000 are the Church
144,000 are the Church
St. Augustine claims that the number signifies the whole body of saints (Christian Doctrine 3.35).

St. Methodius understands it to be the Church (Banquent of the 10 Virgins 678)

Nicolas of Lyra understands that it is those who are the regenerated in Christ (Commentary on Rev.).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to indicate the Church in 2159.

Maybe they will listen to you.
They sure don’t listen to me.Think White Horse, witnesses
COPLAND 3
They will not hear me, maybe now ?
walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Look at my charts just ahead of this.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Then they come up with this .

I don’t want to enter into different point of view about the scriptures.
I read those 144,000 are the symbolical number of the Jews from Israel that converted to chistianism by the ministry and by the preaching of Jesus.

No wonder Revelations was Hidden For 2000 Years.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

COPLAND 3
They probably wont hear you either.They always want to dig up, Rome ,and blame the the poor Jews Walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Re: Revelations 9, 13-15

---

I do want to weigh in on the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. 7:4, since it has been mentioned in this thread.

As for the Fathers and Doctors go, here is a critique.

144,000 are the Church
St. Augustine claims that the number signifies the whole body of saints (Christian Doctrine 3.35).

St. Bede likewise, this definite number is signified the innumerable multitude of the whole Church (Commentary of Rev.).

St. Methodius understands it to be the Church (Banquent of the 10 Virgins 678)

Nicolas of Lyra understands that it is those who are the regenerated in Christ (Commentary on Rev.).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to indicate the Church in 2159.

144,000 are Jews only
Oecumenius says that they are from the Jews who believed in Christ (Commentary on Rev.).

St. Victorinus understands it the same as Oecumenius.
ryanoneil Read this.

 

[walt2000]

I believe it describes the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., but that fulfillment could be pointing to a future final fulfillment at the end of time.

Either way these verses are highly symbolic. The “cavalry” alone is two hundred million strong! (9:16) Since the cavalry is a small percentage of an army, imagine the size of the army itself! That army would encompass every male alive today, if the cavalry was 1/30th the size of the entire army.

Does that mean the third of the human race they are going to kill is all women and children? I don’t think so, especially in light of (9:20). It makes better sense as a symbolic number. (which is an overwhelming force)

Peace,

Ryan

Your still in the temple ,70 a.d.
Think end time witnesses

 

[walt2000]

I bet their has not been a soul ,that even looked at those charts, I Posted, .walt2000

 

[COPLAND_3]

walt2000,

All due respect, you are not making any sense to me, other than you are dying to get someone to look at your charts. I will take a gander at them, though I am afraid it may be the same sort of charts that I have used when I was a premillennial dispensationalist.

 

[COPLAND_3]

walt2000,

Those charts do appear to be what I remember, which is contrary to Catholic theology and end times. You will find that many Catholics on here that study escatology have a amillennial view, not premillennial. But you are more than welcome to defend your position! I recommend doing less charts because they are hard to see on the attachments. Thanks!

 

[walt2000]

see how things line up in those charts Look vertically and see your answer horizontally.Walt2000

 

[walt2000]

If a person can not see SEVEN STORIES line up and explain them self,s as SEVEN THUNDERS ,they are trying not to.
And I am not trying to make any body see any thing, It is obvious ,and not hard to spot.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

I believe it describes the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., but that fulfillment could be pointing to a future final fulfillment at the end of time.

Either way these verses are highly symbolic. The “cavalry” alone is two hundred million strong! (9:16) Since the cavalry is a small percentage of an army, imagine the size of the army itself! That army would encompass every male alive today, if the cavalry was 1/30th the size of the entire army.

Does that mean the third of the human race they are going to kill is all women and children? I don’t think so, especially in light of (9:20). It makes better sense as a symbolic number. (which is an overwhelming force)

Peace,

Ryan

Either way these verses are highly symbolic. The “cavalry” alone is two hundred million strong! (9:16) Since the cavalry is a small percentage of an army, imagine the size of the army itself! That army would encompass every male alive today, if the cavalry was 1/30th the size of the entire army.

-------------------------------------- highly symbolic-------------------------
200,000,000--------------------------------- You are right ,is a symbolic no.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

200 Signifies ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expectancy ,as in 20 tenfold,See concordance ,See Factor of 20 .
1000 Signifies-------- (See Strong’s Concordance) Hebrew=Myriad number.503 From 505------------- to make thousand fold ,-Bring forth thousands.------------505 ,----Thousand .------------
7231-- (comp.of 4241 ) increase,espc.in number:also (denom.from 7233 )---------- TO MULTIPLY BY THE MYRIAD; increase ,by many (-i fold),be more,multiply ,ten thousands.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Like------- ten thousand x ten thousand and thousands of thousands.multiple myriad no.
If I said a day to the lord is of a thousand years, and a thousand years as of a day how long is that.?
walt2000

 

[ryanoneil]

Re: Revelations 9, 13-15

The Catechism of the Catholic Church seems to indicate the Church in 2159.

144,000 are Jews only
Oecumenius says that they are from the Jews who believed in Christ (Commentary on Rev.).

St. Victorinus understands it the same as Oecumenius.
ryanoneil Read this.

I agree that the 144,000 are Jews who became Christians in the literal sense. (the meaning of the words) With this literal understanding we can then see the other correct interpretations found using the: spiritual, allegorical, moral, and anogogical senses CCC 116-117.

So yes, they are the church, along with the non-Jewish Christians. who are in (Rev 7:9) After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Your still in the temple ,70 a.d.
Think end time witnesses

You are right. I’ve been stuck in the literal sense ever since discovering it. Often times at the expense of the spiritual sense. (not completely though).

I’ve been on a crusade, so to speak, because I never heard the literal meaning of Revelation in my first 30+ years. The spiritual sense of Rev has overshadowed the literal for some good reasons. Unfortunately, we have all these weird senarios because few people understand the literal sense.

CCC116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.”

CCC117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.

I should not be reducing Rev to the literal sense, because it is so rich with meaning. You and Spauline have rightly pointed this out to me. I feel so compelled to share this though. I have to try harder to balance this with the spiritual sense.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

-------------------------------------- highly symbolic-------------------------
200,000,000--------------------------------- You are right ,is a symbolic no.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

200 Signifies ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expectancy ,as in 20 tenfold,See concordance ,See Factor of 20 .
1000 Signifies-------- (See Strong’s Concordance) Hebrew=Myriad number.503 From 505------------- to make thousand fold ,-Bring forth thousands.------------505 ,----Thousand .------------
7231-- (comp.of 4241 ) increase,espc.in number:also (denom.from 7233 )---------- TO MULTIPLY BY THE MYRIAD; increase ,by many (-i fold),be more,multiply ,ten thousands.walt2000

I should have have said “twice ten thousand times ten thousand” instead of 2 hundred million. It makes better sense as a symbolic number.

walt2000:

Like------- ten thousand x ten thousand and thousands of thousands.multiple myriad no

have you noticed the cavalry is double the size of the number who attend to the Lamb as they encircle the throne?

I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless in number. (Rev 5:11)

countless: literally, “100,000,000 plus 1,000,000,” used by the author to express infinity.

I know you are big on numbers. Is the number of God 3 and man’s number 6? Is this symbolic of the army of man being twice the size of God’s loyal following, even in heaven?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[mich2]

see how things line up in those charts Look vertically and see your answer horizontally.Walt2000

I’m not sure how to read the chart; although it seems interesting, Walt. According to the chart, do would you identify the 4 spirits that roam the earth as being the 2 beasts (earth, sea), the dragon and the prostitue?

Andre

 

[walt2000]

I’m not sure how to read the chart; although it seems interesting, Walt. According to the chart, do would you identify the 4 spirits that roam the earth as being the 2 beasts (earth, sea), the dragon and the prostitute?

Andre

You got it , four represents the Earth no…The Four horses of the old test I believe it is in Zec.6.5 some place.I,d have to look it up in the concordance.

Look deeper look where and how the winepress’s line up.The sealed, the blessed, And the witnesses,see how they are all in line with each other,.
All the scripture is all in order, and not mixed up to make a story work out.
If you were to cut the chart up and lay the strips end by end You would get the whole book of Revelations in a ribbon ,as it came out of the mouth of God.

Look where the come up my people ,and come out my people are, in the seven scenarios.

See how the 1st. seals ,1st.trumpets,1st.vials line up .and more and more I can not see how that could be missed for 2000 years.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

I should have have said “twice ten thousand times ten thousand” instead of 2 hundred million. It makes better sense as a symbolic number.

have you noticed the cavalry is double the size of the number who attend to the Lamb as they encircle the throne?

I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless in number. (Rev 5:11)

countless: literally, “100,000,000 plus 1,000,000,” used by the author to express infinity.

I know you are big on numbers. Is the number of God 3 and man’s number 6? Is this symbolic of the army of man being twice the size of God’s loyal following, even in heaven?

Peace,

Ryan

3000 and 5000 Doe’s not necessarily mean a number.Or Doe’s 700 wives.
3 =is a Trinity no. It could have meant the subject of the story.
5 =is a the no. of the word of God.Preaching.
7 =the no. of perfection,
10 = They were killed by the ten ,10 is mans governmental no.It Doe’s not necessarily mean a specific no.And so on walt2000