Revelations

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Hello,

I just read Revelations. It is a very moving book, not to downplay any of the Bible. At first I was affraid because of my iniquity, but now I have hope for change. How can one avoid being marked in the forehead or the hand? Also, the book of life is already written, correct? Or is there anything one could do to truly repent and pay for thier past sins?
 
The book of life is written in eternity. Everybody has their chance to get onto it.

You will know when the mark shows up. It is not here yet.

ICXC NIKA
 
Hello,

I just read Revelations. It is a very moving book, not to downplay any of the Bible. At first I was affraid because of my iniquity, but now I have hope for change. How can one avoid being marked in the forehead or the hand? Also, the book of life is already written, correct? Or is there anything one could do to truly repent and pay for their past sins?
The Book of Revelations is a very hard one to read because its hard to interpret everything it says. The language used is very different than in other books. I guess its full of metaphors.

I wanna talk a bit about your reference of the Mark of the beast (which is said in Rev to be marked on the forehead and/or hand). As we see in Rev 13:16

“He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,…”

Revelation 14:9
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,…”

Revelations 19:20
“But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”

I don’t think John is speaking literally here. Literally, physically, if someone marks you on the forehead or right hand (why right anyway? Why not left?) you don’t go to hell for that. I know many Christians that think they do. But I think what he means is that the evil one will try to make you do what he wants which is evil. Which is everything that has to do with not doing God’s will. So he will try to dominate your mind (forehead) and your will (right hand). He will try to convince you to reject God.

At least that’s my interpretation. You don’t go to hell for being physically marked. You go to hell because you reject God, which is not doing his will.

Maybe someone else could differ with me though…
 
Just remember details of the Liturgy as you read it. Keeping the Liturgy in mind is more enlightening. 😉
 
You need a Commentary. Revelation is a book of hope, not doom.

What’s the opening line? [BIBLEDRB]Rev 1:1[/BIBLEDRB]

Shortly. Not 2000 years in the future. So forget all the hysterical end-of-the-world stuff. It is written in a sort of code, and a commentary will help decipher it. Christianity was a crime when it was written, hence the need to not use names. I think it’s called “plausible deniability” nowadays. If I refer to a certain prominent government official as “The Teleprompter” you’d probably know exactly who I mean.

Here’s as good an explanation of the Mark of the Beast as any I’ve read.
A More Complete Explanation of the Meaning of the Number of the Beast in Revelation 13:28
  1. The text indicates in 13:17 that this is the number of the beast’s name, and in 13:18 the Greek, literally translated says:“The wisdom [or, key to understanding] is here: The one having intelligence, let him count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man.” Therefore, the number is not some non-specific, general symbol for someone; it is specifically the number of a particular individual.
  1. We do not have the original Greek edition of Revelation; all we have are copies of copies. Most copies that we have say the number is 666; however a small but significant number say the number is 616. Therefore, whatever explanation is used for 666 must also hold true for 616.
  1. There was a Hebrew science called Gematria which found significance in the fact that Hebrew letters were also used as numerals. A New Testament example of this may be seen in Matthew 1:17, where a listing of Jesus’ family tree yields three sets of fourteen generations. The name “David” spelled in Hebrew is “DVD”; in the Hebrew alphabet a “D” is a 4 and a “V” is 6: 4 + 6 + 4 = 14. Jesus is the son of David, a point very important to Matthew and his Hebrew Christian readers.
  1. We have already said that both the head of the beast that did not die after being mortally wounded, as well as the first of the four horseman, refer to Nero. Taking Nero’s Greek name and transliterating it into Hebrew letters (it’s a Hebrew number science, so one must transliterate the Greek letters into Hebrew letters), NRON KSR (Neron Kaisar)= 666. If one uses the Latin form in Hebrew letters, one gets 616. Thus the name of Nero Caesar explains both numbers.
You might recall that the image of Caesar is on the coins of the time. You can’t buy or sell without the mark…

Scott Hahn has a book called The Lamb’s Supper than interprets Revelation as the Mass. Try that one, too.
 
As a former Protestant, now Catholic, I still think Revelation has eschatological implications, and can speak across the generations, other than the one to whom John was specifically, namely that afffected by the persecution of Nero.

Scripture often does that. When Christ said to his literal disciples, “… you are my disciples…”, He wasn’t just talking to them. He was also talking to us. And when he said to his literal followers 2000 years ago, "… the world will make you suffer… ", the same principle applied. When Christ said to his disciples, “You didn’t choose me. I chose you…”, He was also speaking to us.

So why should Revelation be any different?

Incidentally, I don’t take much interest in it, but I have do have opinions.

For example, Chapter 12 opens with a discourse, (NIV)
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
To me, that’s Mary, who has been turning up with considerable frequency over the last couple of centures, and each time the warnings get tougher, until at Akita in Japan circa 1973, we almost have a repeat of some of Revelation’s blood curdling threats. And until someone comes up with a better explanation, I’ll go on believing it refers directly to Mary, the Mother of Christ, the Mother of God.

As far as the Mark of the Beast goes, for my money it will be a chip, possibly accompanied by some sort of killing method, and immediate ability to close your bank account, so you starve at the very least.

I’ve got a small book at home put out by the Australian ALP government when Bob Hawke was the Prime Minister. There was a “Committee for the Future” chaired by a man who is probably Australia’s best known atheist, Philip Adams, and it investigated a range of issues. This particular booklet dealt with the “Cashless Society.” And in it, there was the issue of privacy.

It went on to say that as far back as 1975, a think tank of American lawyers worked out the best way to monitor an individual’s location and behaviour without his or her knowledge would be the compulsory use of electronic money. And if you had such a chip in your hand or forehead, it would be a bit difficult to pretend to be anyone else - you couldn’t steal it or put it into an ATM. Fraud would still be possible online, but maybe not if it had to be read by a special reader first.

So I think Revelation does have some eschatological significance. But as someone else pointed out, it’s murky to interpret at the very best.
 
You need a Commentary. Revelation is a book of hope, not doom.

What’s the opening line? [BIBLEDRB]Rev 1:1[/BIBLEDRB]

Shortly. Not 2000 years in the future. So forget all the hysterical end-of-the-world stuff. It is written in a sort of code, and a commentary will help decipher it. Christianity was a crime when it was written, hence the need to not use names. I think it’s called “plausible deniability” nowadays. If I refer to a certain prominent government official as “The Teleprompter” you’d probably know exactly who I mean.

Here’s as good an explanation of the Mark of the Beast as any I’ve read. You might recall that the image of Caesar is on the coins of the time. You can’t buy or sell without the mark…

Scott Hahn has a book called The Lamb’s Supper than interprets Revelation as the Mass. Try that one, too.
Nice explanation.
 
So there might not be a coming Antichrist…I hope there isn’t…
 
So there might not be a coming Antichrist…I hope there isn’t…
There has to be one, sorry.

The end cannot come “until the man of sin be revealed.”

But when that being is revealed, I for one will rejoice, raise my head, and trip the light fantastic because our LORD will be next! And HE will have life everlasting in HIS hands!

ICXC NIKA
 
There has to be one, sorry.

The end cannot come “until the man of sin be revealed.”

But when that being is revealed, I for one will rejoice, raise my head, and trip the light fantastic because our LORD will be next! And HE will have life everlasting in HIS hands!

ICXC NIKA
Well, I’m just very confused because if the number 666 stands for Nero Ceaser and everything in Revelation is symbolically talking about him, his reign and the end of it (his reign) than there is no upcoming Antichrist…I just don’t know what to think about this anymore.
 
Well, I’m just very confused because if the number 666 stands for Nero Ceaser and everything in Revelation is symbolically talking about him, his reign and the end of it (his reign) than there is no upcoming Antichrist…I just don’t know what to think about this anymore.
Rev. was written long after the end of Nero’s reign.

Nero died in AD 64. Rev was written around AD 100.

The readership of Rev. had no need to be reassured about the end of a tyrannical reign that had ended decades before.

But more significant is that the events of Rev. which involve the world winding down and life everlasting commencing, have NOT taken place, so still lie in the future.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
Rev. was written long after the end of Nero’s reign.

Nero died in AD 64. Rev was written around AD 100.

The readership of Rev. had no need to be reassured about the end of a tyrannical reign that had ended decades before.

But more significant is that the events of Rev. which involve the world winding down and life everlasting commencing, have NOT taken place, so still lie in the future.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
Thank you for letting me know.
 
Rev. was written long after the end of Nero’s reign.

Nero died in AD 64. Rev was written around AD 100.

The readership of Rev. had no need to be reassured about the end of a tyrannical reign that had ended decades before.

**But more significant is that the events of Rev. which involve the world winding down and life everlasting commencing, have NOT taken place, so still lie in the future.**God Bless and ICXC NIKA
Yes, they are more significant, but I’m scared of potentially being tortured and killed during the reign of the Antichrist and of proving to be a coward during that time.
 
Yes, they are more significant, but I’m scared of potentially being tortured and killed during the reign of the Antichrist and of proving to be a coward during that time.
Don’t watch or read the “Left Behind” series.
 
I never have and never will. It has nothing to do with my fear though.
Well, I pray for strength to handle whatever God has in store for me. I hope to have supernatural strength to handle my trials should God choose to send me that type of trial. It would be difficult, and only through God could I stay strong. I cried like a baby in the dentist’s chair the other day, and that was only getting a shot to numb my mouth! I AM a baby when it comes to pain.
 
Do not worry, for with Christ you are on the winning side. 🙂
 
Here’s what Scott Hahn says about The Book Of Revelation

"The last verse in Revelation 11 is 11:19 and states, “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.” This brings us to Revelation 12 and John sees the divine temple in the heavenly Jerusalem and the real Ark of the New Covenant. And that’s what he describes, he doesn’t just say, oh I see the Ark and let’s just forget about that and we’ll shift over to this woman. If he’s seeing the Ark, he’s describing the Ark and his description of the Ark is of the woman who bears the male child in verse 5, “She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.” Now who is this? Some say it’s the OT synagogue daughter, Zion, others say it’s the Church. I’d say you’re both right but in addition to those truths, there’s a higher truth that ties them together and that is, this woman is the Blessed Virgin Mary. Why, because in this vision, there are 4 characters. There’s the woman, there’s the male child who is to rule the nations, there’s also Satan in the form of a dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns and there’s Michael the Archangel. Now we know the male child is Jesus, an individual person, but it’s also a symbol of the whole Davidic dynasty, because it quotes Psalm 2, verse 9, which is applicable to every Davidic king, most especially to Jesus. So it refers to Jesus but it also is a symbol of this corporate reality, the Davidic kingdom. Likewise, Satan, the great dragon, certainly refers to an individual personage, the fallen angel himself, Satan. But he has 7 heads and 10 horns which symbolize the earthly empires that he uses to make war against God’s people. Likewise, Michael the Archangel, who makes war against this dragon but he doesn’t do it alone, he does it with all the angelic hosts, all of the armies of heaven, of which he is their head representative. So you have representative heads here, Jesus, the representative head of the Davidic dynasty, Satan, the representative head of the fallen angels, Michael, the representative head of the angels who make war against evil. And so Mary is the representative head of the Church. The church is called to be a virgin bride of Christ and yet mother church, a fruitful mother. How can the Church be both? Only one person was endowed by God to be both, Mary is the virgin bride and a fruitful mother. In Mary, the Holy Spirit has created the Ark type and source of the Church. This is how Vatican II describes Mary and this is why more than half a dozen Popes said Mary is the woman described in John’s vision of Revelation 12. We wouldn’t be a family without a mother!

And here’s what he says about The Mass and the Apocalypse.

"In the Apocalypse, Jesus is called the Lamb of God 28 times in 22 chapters. The only other place we hear Lamb of God in the NT is in John’s gospel and there it’s only referred to twice in the opening chapter. The Lamb of God is the title for Jesus. The Liturgy of the Catholic Mass is found on just about every single page of the Apocalypse from the opening paragraph of the Apocalypse where Jesus Christ appears in a white robe with a golden girdle, standing amid seven golden lampstands. He was wearing the uniform of the High Priest, standing next to the Menorah, which stood by the alter of sacrifice in the Jerusalem Temple. In chapters 1, 2, and 3 you find images of Liturgical furniture, of Liturgical functions, there were incense, songs, prayers, trumpets, there was a book that was opened after 7 seals were broken. There were chalice’s that were mixed and poured but you would have to know the Catholic Mass to understand these images. These things are present on every single page of the Apocalypse in every chapter. The common theme that runs through the beginning to the end of Revelation is this heavenly liturgy that Jesus revealed to John on the Island of Patmos when he ordered him to write it down, take it back and give it to the churches in Asia Minor so that when they celebrated the liturgy they would know where they were. They were in Heaven! They were doing the same things the angels and the saints in glory were doing. When Jesus Christ overcomes Satan in Revelation, it isn’t simply at the end of time, it’s in the middle of the liturgy of the Lamb, the Lamb’s supper. The liturgy of the Mass and the Apocalypse are a perfect match. In the first part of the Mass we have the Confiteor, the confession. In the 7 letters to the 7 churches in Asia Minor we have Christ calling his people to repent just as we are repenting in the opening scene of the Eucharistic Liturgy as well. You also have Christ promising the hidden manna, what we Catholics know as the Holy Eucharist. So you keep your eyes on the Anti Christ or the Millennium or the mark of the beast and we’ll go to heaven every time we celebrate Mass!
 
Here’s what Scott Hahn says about The Book Of Revelation

"The last verse in Revelation 11 is 11:19 and states, “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.” This brings us to Revelation 12 and John sees the divine temple in the heavenly Jerusalem and the real Ark of the New Covenant. And that’s what he describes, he doesn’t just say, oh I see the Ark and let’s just forget about that and we’ll shift over to this woman. If he’s seeing the Ark, he’s describing the Ark and his description of the Ark is of the woman who bears the male child in verse 5, “She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.” Now who is this? Some say it’s the OT synagogue daughter, Zion, others say it’s the Church. I’d say you’re both right but in addition to those truths, there’s a higher truth that ties them together and that is, this woman is the Blessed Virgin Mary. Why, because in this vision, there are 4 characters. There’s the woman, there’s the male child who is to rule the nations, there’s also Satan in the form of a dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns and there’s Michael the Archangel. Now we know the male child is Jesus, an individual person, but it’s also a symbol of the whole Davidic dynasty, because it quotes Psalm 2, verse 9, which is applicable to every Davidic king, most especially to Jesus. So it refers to Jesus but it also is a symbol of this corporate reality, the Davidic kingdom. Likewise, Satan, the great dragon, certainly refers to an individual personage, the fallen angel himself, Satan. But he has 7 heads and 10 horns which symbolize the earthly empires that he uses to make war against God’s people. Likewise, Michael the Archangel, who makes war against this dragon but he doesn’t do it alone, he does it with all the angelic hosts, all of the armies of heaven, of which he is their head representative. So you have representative heads here, Jesus, the representative head of the Davidic dynasty, Satan, the representative head of the fallen angels, Michael, the representative head of the angels who make war against evil. And so Mary is the representative head of the Church. The church is called to be a virgin bride of Christ and yet mother church, a fruitful mother. How can the Church be both? Only one person was endowed by God to be both, Mary is the virgin bride and a fruitful mother. In Mary, the Holy Spirit has created the Ark type and source of the Church. This is how Vatican II describes Mary and this is why more than half a dozen Popes said Mary is the woman described in John’s vision of Revelation 12. We wouldn’t be a family without a mother!

And here’s what he says about The Mass and the Apocalypse.

"In the Apocalypse, Jesus is called the Lamb of God 28 times in 22 chapters. The only other place we hear Lamb of God in the NT is in John’s gospel and there it’s only referred to twice in the opening chapter. The Lamb of God is the title for Jesus. The Liturgy of the Catholic Mass is found on just about every single page of the Apocalypse from the opening paragraph of the Apocalypse where Jesus Christ appears in a white robe with a golden girdle, standing amid seven golden lampstands. He was wearing the uniform of the High Priest, standing next to the Menorah, which stood by the alter of sacrifice in the Jerusalem Temple. In chapters 1, 2, and 3 you find images of Liturgical furniture, of Liturgical functions, there were incense, songs, prayers, trumpets, there was a book that was opened after 7 seals were broken. There were chalice’s that were mixed and poured but you would have to know the Catholic Mass to understand these images. These things are present on every single page of the Apocalypse in every chapter. The common theme that runs through the beginning to the end of Revelation is this heavenly liturgy that Jesus revealed to John on the Island of Patmos when he ordered him to write it down, take it back and give it to the churches in Asia Minor so that when they celebrated the liturgy they would know where they were. They were in Heaven! They were doing the same things the angels and the saints in glory were doing. When Jesus Christ overcomes Satan in Revelation, it isn’t simply at the end of time, it’s in the middle of the liturgy of the Lamb, the Lamb’s supper. The liturgy of the Mass and the Apocalypse are a perfect match. In the first part of the Mass we have the Confiteor, the confession. In the 7 letters to the 7 churches in Asia Minor we have Christ calling his people to repent just as we are repenting in the opening scene of the Eucharistic Liturgy as well. You also have Christ promising the hidden manna, what we Catholics know as the Holy Eucharist. So you keep your eyes on the Anti Christ or the Millennium or the mark of the beast and we’ll go to heaven every time we celebrate Mass!
I’m confused again as to the Antichrist though…whether or not there will be one. I have a feeling that there will be, but now I don’t know if there’s really anything to it (the feeling.) Is Scott Hahn saying that he’s not at all mentioned in Revelation and so there will be none? (Yes, I realize Revelation is also about the Mass and other things, but I just feel a need to know whether or not there will be an Antichrist.)
 
Rev. was written long after the end of Nero’s reign.

Nero died in AD 64. Rev was written around AD 100.

The readership of Rev. had no need to be reassured about the end of a tyrannical reign that had ended decades before.

But more significant is that the events of Rev. which involve the world winding down and life everlasting commencing, have NOT taken place, so still lie in the future.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
I read recently that Bible scholars can only speculate as to when it was written.
 
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