Reverence or Revolt

[nsm]

This past advent my husband and I came into full communion with the Catholic Church (we were previously very involved Evangelicals). My joy at coming home is inexpressible. The Real Presence is such an incredible gift, one that I longed for such a long time. Currently I am in a parish that does not kneel during the consecration. When my husband and I were in preparation class with the parish priest I asked whether we should stand or kneel during the consecration. I was told that since there are not kneelers in the front pews, everyone stands in order to be in the same posture, and that I should follow the customs of each parish that I find myself regarding kneeling or standing. I have been listening to catholic answers for several months now and the answer given on the program has been unanimous – in America faithful Latin-rite Catholics must kneel during the consecration. The gift of the Eucharist is so great that I want to kneel during the consecration, but I am torn between obeying my parish priest and the guidelines set down by the Church. This past Sunday I knelt during the consecration but besides the oldest members of the congregation I was the only one. Since I am a new Catholic (and while a protestant I was very protestant), is it presumptuous of me to kneel during the consecration even though my priest has instructed me not to?

I know that you probably get a lot of questions about kneeling during the consecration but any bit of information on this would be much appreciated!!!

 

[buffalo]

It is not permissible for the front row to kneel on the floor?

 

[nsm]

This is what I thought, but I didn’t want to be seen as being a trouble maker by pursuing the point. Because I am so new to this, I feel like who am I to question someone who has given his whole life to Christ? I don’t want to be seen as the bellicose former Protestant who is coming in ready to be picky. But at the same time I feel like if I don’t kneel then I am disrespecting the Lord who gave up his life for me.

 

[Tony_Souza]

First of all, welcome home.
It is always a sticky situation when you see liturgical abuses like that. Unfortunately many Catholics, and many parishes in general, are not liturgically literate. Too many bishops and priests are wishy washy and are afraid to correct and guide their flock. It is also the case that many priests just don’t know or, more likely, don’t care about the correct thing to do.
The fact of the matter is that the General Instruction for the Roman Missal dictates that you kneel during the consecration. You are not wrong to kneel. You should also approach your pastor with this, in a loving, charitable Christian manner. If he changes it, great. If not, respectfully voice your concern and let it be. You still are not wrong to do as the Church teaches.
I live in the Archdiocese of Seattle. We have here some very liberal parishes and many similar issues with the mass. Two examples: at my parish everyone stands during the great amen, not after, as you should. Also, after receiveing Christ, they all stand in their pews, when the GIRM specifically says you “may sit or kneel.” My fiancee and I still do what the Church says. It actually becomes a good chance witness to our less aware, though very sincere, Catholic brethren. When they ask why we don’t do the same as the rest, we can tell them the proper way to conduct yourself.
The best thiong to do is to pray for your parish and your pastor. Remember, no one can change the world. You can only change your small corner of it.

 

[benedictgal]

Welcome home and welcome to the Forums!

Francis Cardinal Arinze was faced with this same question. Here is his answer, courtesy of the www.adoremus.org:

Does everybody have to stand until the last person has received Holy Communion?

There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. So, after people have received Communion, they can stand, they can kneel, they can sit. But a bishop in his diocese or bishops in a country could say that they recommend standing or kneeling. They could. It is not a law from Rome. They could – but not impose it. Perhaps they could propose. But those who want to sit or kneel or stand should be left reasonable freedom.

Is that the same thing with the consecration? Can they kneel during the consecration?

A bit different there. The rule from Rome would sanction where the bishops said, “in our country we want people to kneel throughout the consecration”. From our office in Rome we will support that. So it is a bit different. But sometimes during the consecration – suppose it is open-air or it rained and it is muddy – you could not kneel there. But in the normal church it is possible to kneel.

And that’s the normal thing: to kneel during the consecration – and even, as in this country, to kneel from the beginning – just before consecration – right down to just before the Our Father. And that is okay.

Where a particular person cannot kneel – you have arthritis or you are a mother holding a baby – that is understood.

Cardinal Arinze is the Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. In plain language, he’s the Holy Father’s point man on liturgy, and he speaks with authority on the matter. In fact, he was one of the principal authors of a document called Redemptionis Sacramentum, which deals with liturgical abuses.

I hope this helps you.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

This past advent my husband and I came into full communion with the Catholic Church (we were previously very involved Evangelicals). My joy at coming home is inexpressible. The Real Presence is such an incredible gift, one that I longed for such a long time. Currently I am in a parish that does not kneel during the consecration. When my husband and I were in preparation class with the parish priest I asked whether we should stand or kneel during the consecration. I was told that since there are not kneelers in the front pews, everyone stands in order to be in the same posture, and that I should follow the customs of each parish that I find myself regarding kneeling or standing. I have been listening to catholic answers for several months now and the answer given on the program has been unanimous – in America faithful Latin-rite Catholics must kneel during the consecration. The gift of the Eucharist is so great that I want to kneel during the consecration, but I am torn between obeying my parish priest and the guidelines set down by the Church. This past Sunday I knelt during the consecration but besides the oldest members of the congregation I was the only one. Since I am a new Catholic (and while a protestant I was very protestant), is it presumptuous of me to kneel during the consecration even though my priest has instructed me not to?

I know that you probably get a lot of questions about kneeling during the consecration but any bit of information on this would be much appreciated!!!

’
Can you and your husband select pews that have kneelers so it is not so obvious ?

 

[John_Lilburne]

I do not think it is a requirement to kneel for the consecration in the USA.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“43. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …”.

Having “some other good reason” makes it extremely general. The direction for what to do when standing, further highlights this.

The encouragement for a uniform posture should also be considered. From the GIRM: “42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.” And from the end of n. 43: “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

Many Sundays I am the only member of the congregation standing for the Gloria. I do this because the Roman Missal and Ceremonial of Bishops are crystal clear that “During the Gloria all stand.” (Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 53, n. 135)

But the directions about kneeling for the consecration are nothing like that. There is a clear option, kneeling or standing, for the leader of the community to decide. He should be supported in his decision.

 

[benedictgal]

I do not think it is a requirement to kneel for the consecration in the USA.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“43. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …”.

Having “some other good reason” makes it extremely general. The direction for what to do when standing, further highlights this.

The encouragement for a uniform posture should also be considered. From the GIRM: “42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.” And from the end of n. 43: “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

Many Sundays I am the only member of the congregation standing for the Gloria. I do this because the Roman Missal and Ceremonial of Bishops are crystal clear that “During the Gloria all stand.” (Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 53, n. 135)

But the directions about kneeling for the consecration are nothing like that. There is a clear option, kneeling or standing, for the leader of the community to decide. He should be supported in his decision.

John, I would have to disagree with you on your reading of the GIRM in this particular instance. Kneeling is the posture in the United States, as Cardinal Arinze noted in his answer. In fact, we are the only ones who remain kneeling up until the Pater Noster. This is not an individual choice, but a norm.

In fact, the disposable misalettes we use in this country cue the faithful when to kneel and when to stand. I have also been to Mass in Mexico. Now, they kneel for the consecration, but, they stand at the Memorial Acclamation. When the folks from Mexico attend Mass in our diocese it sort of throws our parishioners into a tailspin because they stand while we remain kneeling. Often, the celebrant has to use hand-signals to cue the Mexican faithful to continue kneeling.

 

[Phemie]

I know what the norm is for the US but I’d like to see what the Latin version of the GIRM says. The 1975 edition said to kneel at the words of consecration but not through the entire Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[japhy]

I’m quoting and answering a group of people here.

Currently I am in a parish that does not kneel during the consecration. … I was told that since there are not kneelers in the front pews, everyone stands in order to be in the same posture, and that I should follow the customs of each parish that I find myself regarding kneeling or standing.

In my opinion, that is a cop-out. The parish I grew up at had a row of seats in the front with no kneelers: people either sat or kneeled on the floor. You’ll find the same excuse at churches built without kneelers at all: “Oh, we have no kneelers, so everyone should stand (or sit) instead of kneeling.” At the parish I’m at now, the front pew has a piece of furniture in front of it (akin to a communion rail, I guess, but not really) that has kneelers on it so that the people in the front pew can kneel.

I do not think it is a requirement to kneel for the consecration in the USA.

“43. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …”.

I would disagree that the lack of kneelers for the front row of seats constitutes a “good reason” for everyone else to have to stand or sit. When there’s a person in a wheelchair, does everyone stay seated throughout the whole Mass? No.

But the directions about kneeling for the consecration are nothing like that. There is a clear option, kneeling or standing, for the leader of the community to decide. He should be supported in his decision.

Actually, I don’t believe the GIRM says “standing”, it simply says they should kneel unless prevented: that leaves the door open for standing or sitting. Also, GIRM 43 is talking about the exception to the rule here: “Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.” My understanding of this is “Those who do not kneel [while the rest of the congregation is kneeling] ought to make…”

I know what the norm is for the US but I’d like to see what the Latin version of the GIRM says. The 1975 edition said to kneel at the words of consecration but not through the entire Eucharistic Prayer.

The 2002 Latin GIRM says this within #43:
Genuflectant vero, nisi valetudinis causa, vel ob angustiam loci vel frequentiorem numerum adstantium aliasve rationabiles causas impediantur, ad consecrationem. Hi vero qui non genuflectunt ad consecrationem, inclinationem profundam peragant dum sacerdos genuflectit post consecrationem.

(Roughly: However, they should kneel, unless a health reason, or lack of space, or the number of people present, or some other good reason prevents them, at the consecration. However, who does not kneel at the consecration, should make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.)

Est tamen Conferentiae Episcoporum, gestus et corporis habitus in Ordine Missae descriptos ingenio et rationabilibus populorum traditionibus ad normam iuris aptare. Attendendum tamen erit, ut sensui et indoli cuiusque partis celebrationis respondeant. Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur.

(REALLY Roughly: Nevertheless, it is up to the Episcopal Conference to prescribe the gestures and postures, etc. THE BOLD PART: It is praiseworthy to retain the custom (where it exists) of the people to kneel from after the Sanctus and up to the end of the Eucharistic Prayer.

Of course, if you look at the GIRM, there’s a lot that’s “praiseworthy” (laudabiliter) that we just ignore, such as: silence in the church, sacristy, vesting room, and adjacent areas before Mass (#45); using a chalice veil (#118); and the singing, by celebrant and concelebrants, of those parts of the Eucharistic Prayer that have musical notation and which all concelebrants are to say together.

I’ve been invited to stand around the altar for small-group Masses twice recently; I’ve gone up, but I’ve knelt during the E.P. and after the Agnus Dei even though no one else has (why?). I suppose, from now on, when I’m at those small-group Masses that have us stand around the altar during the E.P., for the sake of unity (GIRM nn. 42-43) I will not kneel (since no one else does, even though we’re not told by the priest to remain standing nor not to kneel), but I will do as I am told by the GIRM and make a profound bow when the priest genuflects.

 

[Phemie]

Actually, I don’t believe the GIRM says “standing”, it simply says they should kneel unless prevented: that leaves the door open for standing or sitting.

No, the default at that point is standing. The GIRM lists the times when we sit. Then it says we stand for the rest except at Consecration when we kneel unless prevented. So if we can’t kneel, we stand.

 

[benedictgal]

No, the default at that point is standing. The GIRM lists the times when we sit. Then it says we stand for the rest except at Consecration when we kneel unless prevented. So if we can’t kneel, we stand.

And this prevention would include a physical ailment such as arthritis or other extrenuating circumstance, as Cardinal Arinze explained in the section I quoted in my initial post.

 

[japhy]

No, the default at that point is standing. The GIRM lists the times when we sit. Then it says we stand for the rest except at Consecration when we kneel unless prevented. So if we can’t kneel, we stand.

Ah, right. Good catch.

 

[Phemie]

And this prevention would include a physical ailment such as arthritis or other extrenuating circumstance, as Cardinal Arinze explained in the section I quoted in my initial post.

The GIRM also gives bishops the right to determine posture at that point. Our Conference allows each bishop to decide for his diocese. Some bishops leave it up to individual pastors.

 

[benedictgal]

The GIRM also gives bishops the right to determine posture at that point. Our Conference allows each bishop to decide for his diocese. Some bishops leave it up to individual pastors.

True. However, I’ve been to Masses in the Dioceses of Austin, Laredo, Dallas and Corpus Christi, as well as the Archdioceses of San Antonio and Galveston-Houston and we’ve knelt at every place, except at the University Catholic Center. However, the faithful at the UCC were split. The more traditional ones (myself included) knelt. The others stood. But, in a normal setting, everyone at the other Masses I have assisted knelt.

At my old parish, they tried the idea of standing in the pews during Communion, but, that posture died a very quick and painless death. Very few people in the pews bought into the argument (I warned them that this would happen during our Liturgy Committee meeting).

 

[Joan_M]

Kneeling is the posture in the United States, as Cardinal Arinze noted in his answer. In fact, we are the only ones who remain kneeling up until the Pater Noster.

This is not correct. It is the norm, also, for all the english speaking islands in the Caribbean to do this. Furthermore, it is also done in Ireland (unless they changed that in the last 3 years).

I’m quite sure that if we checked it out, there are other countries, too, that kneel from after the Sanctus until after the Great Amen.

 

[Phemie]

In our parish we stand after the response to the Orate Frates (again GIRM 2002 not implemented here) and we were told not to kneel for the Consecration. I’d say about 80% stand, the other 20% kneel and rise at various times, some immediately after the consecration, some not until after the Great Amen. Some kneel again after the Sign of Peace.

After I receive Communion I stand and sing and remain standing until everyone has received. I sit after everyone has received.

 

[benedictgal]

This is not correct. It is the norm, also, for all the english speaking islands in the Caribbean to do this. Furthermore, it is also done in Ireland (unless they changed that in the last 3 years).

I’m quite sure that if we checked it out, there are other countries, too, that kneel from after the Sanctus until after the Great Amen.

Sorry for my ignorance. I took Cardinal Arinze’s remarks to mean that the United States was the only conference where this posture was assumed from after the Sanctus to before the Pater Noster.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

This is not correct. It is the norm, also, for all the english speaking islands in the Caribbean to do this. Furthermore, it is also done in Ireland (unless they changed that in the last 3 years

In general in Ireland the congregation kneels from the Sanctus to the Great Amen and then stands for the Our Father. I say ‘in general’ because in some parishes people kneel before the Sanctus, usually when the celebrant says ‘Lift up your hearts’. In other parishes the congregation stands at these words and then kneels after the Sanctus. Standing after Communion doesn’t seem to be widespread here in Ireland: in fact I’ve never seen it done or required but then I live a sheltered life…

 

[nsm]

Thank you so much for the warm welcomes and for all of the responses! It This has been so helpful. One further nagging question is have I sinned during the times when I remained standing but thought that I should be kneeling (essentially just standing so that I did not rock the boat), and in so sinning did I commit sacrilege by taking the Eucharist – I really hope not