Reversing Original Sin

[mdcpensive1]

Since the sin of Adam and Eve there has been problems in our lives due to disordered tendencies which manifest themselves as disruptions in our social history. If we were to all practice charity and do penances that were offered for the effects of original sin, could we reverse the effects of original sin and help place us back near the time when we had God’s original graces. I know that penances are for merit and I also know that this is not a way of obtaining salvation through works. But can we reverse the bad things happening today by countering the evil that has been done at least on the human level??

I know that salvation is only by the grace of God, but is it humanly possible to reverse the damages of original sin that has hurt us over time?? Maybe I am thinking of a limited atonement using what is humanly acceptable to God.

I also am NOT thinking this would bring back preternatural gifts, but just to give our cultures to work with more graces since we would not be dealing with so many disordered problems.

I hope to use the comments for items of contemplation before the Eucharist.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m a little confused by your question.

Do you mean:

• “Can a baptized person, through a holy life, approach the human state that Adam & Eve enjoyed before the fall?”
• or, “Can we as humans, through the collective might of all our good works (presuming we all do good and avoid evil), turn humanity back to its pre-fall state?”
• or, “Can we offer penances such that they have an effect on newborn babies, rendering them untouched (or nearly so) by original sin?”

…or something else?

 

[fbl9]

I’m a little confused by your question.

Do you mean:

• “Can a baptized person, through a holy life, approach the human state that Adam & Eve enjoyed before the fall?”
• or, “Can we as humans, through the collective might of all our good works (presuming we all do good and avoid evil), turn humanity back to its pre-fall state?”
• or, “Can we offer penances such that they have an effect on newborn babies, rendering them untouched (or nearly so) by original sin?”

…or something else?

i think it’s something else.

OP i think i understand what you are getting at,
ie: i offer my fast to God for the sake others who have no food. The merit/grace i “earned” would then be used by God to compel, through this grace, others to help these peoples. And the more persons offering for the sake of the world the more God’s grace would flow into the world thus bringing the whole world closer to God./

 

[Mystophilus]

I know that salvation is only by the grace of God, but is it humanly possible to reverse the damages of original sin that has hurt us over time?? Maybe I am thinking of a limited atonement using what is humanly acceptable to God.

I hope to use the comments for items of contemplation before the Eucharist.

You might like to read St Nikitas Stithatos, ‘On the Inner Nature of Things’, in the Philokalia: he talks about this in some depth, and his answer is decidedly affirmative. St Simeon the New Theologian, St Nikitas’ teacher, could also be of interest.

 

[thistle]

i think it’s something else.

OP i think i understand what you are getting at,
ie: i offer my fast to God for the sake others who have no food. The merit/grace i “earned” would then be used by God to compel, through this grace, others to help these peoples. And the more persons offering for the sake of the world the more God’s grace would flow into the world thus bringing the whole world closer to God./

If the world population became Catholic and everyone was in a state of grace that has no impact on original sin.

 

[Bravo_6]

Since the sin of Adam and Eve there has been problems in our lives due to disordered tendencies which manifest themselves as disruptions in our social history. If we were to all practice charity and do penances that were offered for the effects of original sin, could we reverse the effects of original sin and help place us back near the time when we had God’s original graces. I know that penances are for merit and I also know that this is not a way of obtaining salvation through works. But can we reverse the bad things happening today by countering the evil that has been done at least on the human level??

I know that salvation is only by the grace of God, but is it humanly possible to reverse the damages of original sin that has hurt us over time?? Maybe I am thinking of a limited atonement using what is humanly acceptable to God.

I also am NOT thinking this would bring back preternatural gifts, but just to give our cultures to work with more graces since we would not be dealing with so many disordered problems.

I hope to use the comments for items of contemplation before the Eucharist.

The effects of Original Sin cannot be reversed,as Adam was constituted the head of the human race.And that’s that.If I am considering the subtext of your question correctly,if “all” were to practice true charity and do penance,this world would be a very different place indeed.Charity is the greatest of all virtues even more so then Faith and Hope.It’s the only virtue that is “practised” in heaven.

 

[Gorgias]

If the world population became Catholic and everyone was in a state of grace that has no impact on original sin.

Right. I think that it was Ratzinger (in Eschatology, perhaps?) who noted that utopianism cannot succeed, since each generation must decide for itself how (and to what extent) it accepts God’s grace; the gift of free will requires that each generation makes this decision on its own, and not cede this decision to previous generations.

 

[fbl9]

If the world population became Catholic and everyone was in a state of grace that has no impact on original sin.

Ah but there would be no evil acts being committed, thus our cultures would not be disordered. And this is what the OP is getting at, to my understanding.

I ask where did you come up with that response any way. In no shape form were either me or the OP suggesting an impact,but more a reversal of the effects of sin which is brought on by original sin.

 

[mdcpensive1]

The effects of Original Sin cannot be reversed,as Adam was constituted the head of the human race.And that’s that.If I am considering the subtext of your question correctly,if “all” were to practice true charity and do penance,this world would be a very different place indeed.Charity is the greatest of all virtues even more so then Faith and Hope.It’s the only virtue that is “practised” in heaven.

If my understanding of original sin is correct, then it has an effect on how we lived our lives over the centuries. The wrong decisions we have made have had an effect on maybe sickness, climate ( in terms of how we use land and fuels), and other things that might have been better if we did not have disordered tendencies and decisions. Can our offerings of penance overcome these tendencies in us to right any wrongs that we have made in the past??

I know that in the sacrament of penance we are forgiven but there is the problem of temporal punishment. Our sacrifices, prayer and offerings of penances can over come this. But is it similar to original sin? Can the problems caused by original sin be overcome by our virtues so to speak?

Are you also suggesting that we cannot get back to a state of original justice, but still in need of a savior?
mdcpensive1

 

[mdcpensive1]

Ah but there would be no evil acts being committed, thus our cultures would not be disordered. And this is what the OP is getting at, to my understanding.

I ask where did you come up with that response any way. In no shape form were either me or the OP suggesting an impact,but more a reversal of the effects of sin which is brought on by original sin.

I think you understand what I was getting at. Thanks.

 

[thistle]

If my understanding of original sin is correct, then it has an effect on how we lived our lives over the centuries. The wrong decisions we have made have had an effect on maybe sickness, climate ( in terms of how we use land and fuels), and other things that might have been better if we did not have disordered tendencies and decisions. Can our offerings of penance overcome these tendencies in us to right any wrongs that we have made in the past??

I know that in the sacrament of penance we are forgiven but there is the problem of temporal punishment. Our sacrifices, prayer and offerings of penances can over come this. But is it similar to original sin? Can the problems caused by original sin be overcome by our virtues so to speak?

Are you also suggesting that we cannot get back to a state of original justice, but still in need of a savior?
mdcpensive1

That is correct. Original sin happened and cannot be reversed. The best any individual can hope for is to eliminate or minimise their own personal sin.
Until the final coming of Christ we need a saviour.

 

[mdcpensive1]

That is correct. Original sin happened and cannot be reversed. The best any individual can hope for is to eliminate or minimise their own personal sin.
Until the final coming of Christ we need a saviour.

Sorry I didn’t get back sooner, I had internet problems.

My understanding is that we can go directly to heaven if we are in the state of grace and have done enough penances and works of charity to merit heaven that bypasses the temporal punishments. In a senario like this, is it fitting that original sin can be seen as the same? Can we merit enough graces to counteract the effects of that original sin that plagues our existence. I do not mean that we can do away with original sin, but counter the effects of it and come back into the original justice.
If you do not think so, could you give me some reasons why? I am curious.
mdcpensive1

 

[Gorgias]

Can we merit enough graces to counteract the effects of that original sin that plagues our existence. I do not mean that we can do away with original sin, but counter the effects of it and come back into the original justice.
If you do not think so, could you give me some reasons why? I am curious.
mdcpensive1

No.

First off, we can’t “merit” anything until we are free of original sin – only once we respond to God’s grace (by baptism, and by our assent), can we be considered to “merit” anything at all. (And, even at that point, our “merit” can only be seen as cooperation in God’s plan.) So, without the grace that God gives us, we can’t even be seen as “meriting” anything at all.

In itself, that answers your question – we cannot “counter the effects of original sin” without the operation of God’s grace in our life. Prior to baptism, we’re unable to counter those effects on our own. (To think that we could is to subscribe to (the heresy of) Pelagianism.) You might want to do a Google search on Pelagianism to see an explanation of why your premise cannot hold…

 

[mdcpensive1]

No.

First off, we can’t “merit” anything until we are free of original sin – only once we respond to God’s grace (by baptism, and by our assent), can we be considered to “merit” anything at all. (And, even at that point, our “merit” can only be seen as cooperation in God’s plan.) So, without the grace that God gives us, we can’t even be seen as “meriting” anything at all.

In itself, that answers your question – we cannot “counter the effects of original sin” without the operation of God’s grace in our life. Prior to baptism, we’re unable to counter those effects on our own. (To think that we could is to subscribe to (the heresy of) Pelagianism.) You might want to do a Google search on Pelagianism to see an explanation of why your premise cannot hold…

I know what pelagianism is but you misunderstood that I was talking after baptism and our ability to merit graces. I was not talking about a bunch of pagans meriting anything. It was about the treasury of merit. Original sin messed things up a lot, so can we merit through works of supernatural charity and such, and reverse the effects of that situation? So far, no one has been able to give me the answer. Yours was close but for a wrong assumption.

I hope you see where I am coming from.
mdcpensive1

 

[fhansen]

Since the sin of Adam and Eve there has been problems in our lives due to disordered tendencies which manifest themselves as disruptions in our social history. If we were to all practice charity and do penances that were offered for the effects of original sin, could we reverse the effects of original sin and help place us back near the time when we had God’s original graces. I know that penances are for merit and I also know that this is not a way of obtaining salvation through works. But can we reverse the bad things happening today by countering the evil that has been done at least on the human level??

I know that salvation is only by the grace of God, but is it humanly possible to reverse the damages of original sin that has hurt us over time?? Maybe I am thinking of a limited atonement using what is humanly acceptable to God.

I also am NOT thinking this would bring back preternatural gifts, but just to give our cultures to work with more graces since we would not be dealing with so many disordered problems.

I hope to use the comments for items of contemplation before the Eucharist.

Salvation is impossible without God and yet salvation always involves our *wills. *As Adam & Eve freely fell, we must freely rise, with God’s help and to the extent we’re willing. Reversing Original Sin means reversing the decision, within ourselves, that Adam & Eve made against God, turning from Him, spurning and rejecting Him. We’re born turned from Him, without faith in, let alone hope in, let alone love for Him. This is an injustice. This is what Jesus came to rectify by reconciling man with God via the Atonement. But as He calls and draws us we must respond and turn to Him, like Prodigals back to the Father. And He’s patient in this process.

 

[Gorgias]

So far, no one has been able to give me the answer. Yours was close but for a wrong assumption.

Hmm… ok then, help me understand, then, exactly where you’re coming from…

Original sin messed things up a lot, so can we merit through works of supernatural charity and such, and reverse the effects of that situation?

The catechism has this to say about the effects of original sin: “As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called ‘concupiscence’).” (CCC, 418)

So, it seems to me that you’re asking whether, through works of charity, we can:

• change human nature (to make it stronger),
• make humanity no longer subject to ignorance, suffering, and death
• and remove the inclination to sin.

Isn’t this what you’re asking? If it is, then the only unclear issue is whether you’re asking if, through works of charity, a person can “reverse this situation” for himself, or if through these works, a person can “reverse this situation” for humanity at large.

I thought that you were asking the second question - whether we, through works of charity, can change the situation for all of humankind. We cannot. We cannot reverse the effects of original sin; baptism can remove the ‘stain’ of original sin, but these effects remain.

Entertain this thought experiment: if we were able, through works of charity, to change the situation for all humankind, then babies who were born without the effects of original sin would have no need for a savior, wouldn’t they? That is, without the inclination toward sin, and without a “darkened intellect”, they wouldn’t sin; and therefore, being without sin, they would automatically attain heaven. This cannot be the case – as humans, we each need Jesus’ redemptive sacrifice in order to hope to reach heaven.

If I’m still addressing the wrong idea, please let me know…

Blessings,

G.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Hmm… ok then, help me understand, then, exactly where you’re coming from…

The catechism has this to say about the effects of original sin: “As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called ‘concupiscence’).” (CCC, 418)

So, it seems to me that you’re asking whether, through works of charity, we can:

• change human nature (to make it stronger),
• make humanity no longer subject to ignorance, suffering, and death
• and remove the inclination to sin.

Isn’t this what you’re asking? If it is, then the only unclear issue is whether you’re asking if, through works of charity, a person can “reverse this situation” for himself, or if through these works, a person can “reverse this situation” for humanity at large.

I thought that you were asking the second question - whether we, through works of charity, can change the situation for all of humankind. We cannot. We cannot reverse the effects of original sin; baptism can remove the ‘stain’ of original sin, but these effects remain.

Entertain this thought experiment: if we were able, through works of charity, to change the situation for all humankind, then babies who were born without the effects of original sin would have no need for a savior, wouldn’t they? That is, without the inclination toward sin, and without a “darkened intellect”, they wouldn’t sin; and therefore, being without sin, they would automatically attain heaven. This cannot be the case – as humans, we each need Jesus’ redemptive sacrifice in order to hope to reach heaven.

If I’m still addressing the wrong idea, please let me know…

Blessings,

G.

Good to hear from you on this as it is still pressing on my mind.
I agree with your first statement in that we can make ourselves stronger by cooperating with God’s graces and thereby doing His will. Since we are part of the Body of Christ this has ramifications in all of us that are connected
.
The second statement I was not addressing because we cannot bring back the preternatural gifts that originally were for our first relatives.

The third one, removing the inclination to sin is an ongoing process as we fight the interior battle and get to know Christ ever so more in unity with Him. Can we do this all the way? I am not sure but if we focus totally on Christ we can come close, but we will always have freedom of will to do otherwise. I guess this is the one that is the point of my question. Can we focus on Christ so much as to do away with most of our inclinations to sin. The saints seem to have come the closest. If we were to be saints in our lives that focused totally on Christ then our actions would always be of love. Our communications would always be to the souls of others in love and it would seem that these things are characteristics of what was so good in the garden with adam and eve.
I know this will not happen since there is such things as apostacy and those who do not believe, but those that do believe and trust in God, can make I guess things better a little as God allows goodness to overcome evil.
Does this make any sense to you?
mdcpensive1

 

[mdcpensive1]

Salvation is impossible without God and yet salvation always involves our *wills. *As Adam & Eve freely fell, we must freely rise, with God’s help and to the extent we’re willing. Reversing Original Sin means reversing the decision, within ourselves, that Adam & Eve made against God, turning from Him, spurning and rejecting Him. We’re born turned from Him, without faith in, let alone hope in, let alone love for Him. This is an injustice. This is what Jesus came to rectify by reconciling man with God via the Atonement. But as He calls and draws us we must respond and turn to Him, like Prodigals back to the Father. And He’s patient in this process.

Thanks for responding. I always look forward to your comments.

Yes, the atonement merited all the graces necessary for our salvation and as we cooperate with these graces the full body of Christ that we are part of becomes holier and in a sense, reduces the tendencies of concupicience as I understand it.

I guess this is my question. Can we effect by our cooperation with grace the reduction of original sin’s affects in our humanity that disrupts our unity with God? Has original sin allowed more disease, death, etc to become more common in our lives that can somehow be ever so small or slowly reversed by love and charity growing in our souls. Or is it that original sin is something that is an overall problem with our lives and can never be reduced?

mdcpensive1

mdcpensive1

 

[fhansen]

Thanks for responding. I always look forward to your comments.

Yes, the atonement merited all the graces necessary for our salvation and as we cooperate with these graces the full body of Christ that we are part of becomes holier and in a sense, reduces the tendencies of concupicience as I understand it.

I guess this is my question. Can we effect by our cooperation with grace the reduction of original sin’s affects in our humanity that disrupts our unity with God? Has original sin allowed more disease, death, etc to become more common in our lives that can somehow be ever so small or slowly reversed by love and charity growing in our souls. Or is it that original sin is something that is an overall problem with our lives and can never be reduced?

mdcpensive1

mdcpensive1

Sin is a matter of the will and, together with the concupiscence that drives it in us, it *will *be overcome eventually, even if purgatory is part of the process. Scripture tells us no sinners will enter heaven-and why should they? Sin is opposition to God’s will after all; sin is what separates us from Him while heaven is total unification with Him. But it really doesn’t matter because God alone determines when we’re holy enough; our job is simply to keep climbing, keep striving, persevering to the end. As to OS, according to our Catholic faith, it is eliminated by Baptism but the physical consequences of OS remain in this life along with concupiscence.

**409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man’s life a battle:
The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.

1707 "Man, enticed by the Evil One, abused his freedom at the very beginning of history."10 He succumbed to temptation and did what was evil. He still desires the good, but his nature bears the wound of original sin. He is now inclined to evil and subject to error:
Man is divided in himself. As a result, the whole life of men, both individual and social, shows itself to be a struggle, and a dramatic one, between good and evil, between light and darkness.11

978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil "
**

 

[grannymh]

I know that salvation is only by the grace of God, but is it humanly possible to reverse the damages of original sin that has hurt us over time?? Maybe I am thinking of a limited atonement using what is humanly acceptable to God.

Yes, I do understand that this thread is referring to the multiple evils resulting from humankind’s personal actions since the Fall of Adam. My presenting a few of the beginning Catholic teachings about Original Sin is due to the fact that many people, including some, not all, Catholics are looking at Original Sin as some kind of fancy symbol about good and evil. The real act of a real person is disappearing into the oblivion of fairy tales. The Catholic Church knows that we cannot tamper with the Divine Revelation of Original Sin without undermining the mystery of Jesus Christ.

While some of the below has already been discussed, I tried to group together items regarding transmission of Original Sin so that hopefully there is a clearer understanding. Catholicism is in the logical middle when it comes to the effects of Original Sin. On one end is the theory that because of the Fall of Adam, all subsequent humans are sin machines. The opposite theory is that Original Sin did not actually exist; instead awareness of evil emerged as societies developed.

Original Sin is the actual sin of the first person in human history. Because the whole human species, from start to present, was in Adam “as one body of one man”, all humans are implicated in Adam’s sin just as all humans are implicated in the salvific act of the Crucifixion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Original Sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense because it is a sin “contracted” by Adam’s descendants and not “committed” personally by his descendants. Original Sin is a state of human nature. This state of deprivation of original holiness is transmitted to all of Adam’s descendants through propagation. Thus, “Original Sin” itself cannot be reversed; it can be removed by Baptism which is sanctifying grace from God.

Human nature, also transmitted from Adam to his descendants, was wounded by the act of Original Sin. Because we cannot reverse our damaged human nature, we cannot remove Original Sin’s wounded effect on all humanity. However — through our spiritual soul’s powers of intellect and will, we can address the evil effects of personal sins which have been freely committed since Adam. Yes, we can atone for personal sins committed by ourselves and others. Still, it is only Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, Who could atone for the Original Sin which affected all subsequent humans.

Sources: St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4,1; Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, section “The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity”, paragraphs 402-409; Romans 5: 12-21; Humani Generis # 37; and CCC section" IV “You did not abandon him to the power of death” paragraphs 410-412.