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FrDavid96
Guest
I’m curious why you would say that the Sunday Mass is the “ideal place” for the marriage ceremony?
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agapewolf
Guest
Just as other sacraments, like Baptism. It is part of the Community of the church. It is the Church’s sacrament. The marriage is a witness to the church and the world. Within the context of the community’s worship is the ideal place for it. This is a standard. I’m surprised that you didn’t know this.
The fact that its become a circus show in the secular world has made it become more of a private affair, and its leaked into the folks in the church, because all the brides want their big day. Also, with the amount of family and friends invited that are outside of the particular parish, it is a practical concern of fitting everyone in the building.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Whost standard? I’ve never heard of the Church saying that the standard setting for a marriage is the Sunday Mass. In fact, if one party is not Catholic the Church requires the bishop’s permission to have the wedding within the context of the Mass (Rite of Marriage #8). That’s why I’m most curious about this. Yes, it is preferred that the marriage be celebrated within the context of Mass (if both are practicing Catholics, of course), but I can find no reference to a preference for a Sunday Mass as opposed to the Nuptial Mass (especially considering that the Nuptial Mass cannot be used as the parish Sunday Mass). Why did the Church go through all the trouble of composing a Nuptial Mass if it’s not the preferred format?
And most importantly, if this is the “standard”, why doesn’t the Church say as much?
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benedictgal
Guest
However, there are some very good reasons for not having these liturgies take place during the Anticipated Sunday Mass. Unfortunately, as I am sure you have seen since you have played at weddings (and I have helped with the coordination of same), these events take on a life of their own. Often, the couple will bring their own readers and these do not, most of the time, know how to proclaim the Word, let alone anything else associated with the liturgy. I witnessed this last Saturday when a Quince Anos liturgy took over the Cathedral’s anticipated Sunday Mass. The readers were horrible and they proclaimed the readings from pieces of paper (a big no-no). My parochial vicar (who had served as the Cathedral’s first rector) was the celebrant and he was none too happy. He left guidelines behind for his successors, but, they seemed to have been ditched.
Then, the paparazzi show up, again, as in the case of the Quine Anos. They are most distracting, taking pictures of the readers, the couple (in this case the young lady) and everyone and everything, even those receiving Holy Communion. My PV also left strict guidelines, but, they got tossed aside. He was none too pleased.
Granted, not all of these take on strange manifestations, but, the couple (and the family of the young ladies celebrating the Quince Anos) need to take into account that this is, first and foremost, the parish’s anticipated Sunday Mass. Especially since we are in the Lenten Season, the decor and decorum of the Church need to be respected. This brings me to another issue. The wedding parties (and the Quince Anos, for that matter) tend to be loud and proud, thus removing any sense of respect for the fact that they are in the House of God and not in a recption hall. Any bantering and talking (and cell phone use) needs to be done outside, not while people are trying to pray. There is also the issue of punctuality. There have been times when both the bride and the Quince Anos party have been late. This is the parish’s Mass; they need to start on time.
As far as convalidations are concerned, Fr. David makes some excellent points. Having assisted with the coordination of these as well, the simpler the better. While nearly all of the ones that the first rector did were in the context of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (including the baptism of the groom prior to the nuptial Mass), these have always turned out well. The couple still goes through the required meetings with the priest, they take their FOCCUS tests and go through NFP and have a sponsor couple. I actually enjoyed coordinating the convalidations more than the weddings because the couple in the convalidation was just happy to have their marriage blessed. These, in fact, were some of the nicest because there was little to no pretention. That is not to say that the majority of our brides were behaving as such for their weddings, but, these were a lot calmer and no one was trying to do a runway style show.
Something else to consider, as Fr. David pointed out, is the fact that if the wedding is held within the confines of the parish’s Anticipated Sunday Mass, then the readings for that Sunday must be used, as well as the propers, especially if we are in the seasons of Advent, Christmas, Lent and Easter. Even if the wedding takes place outside of the Anticipated Sunday Mass, the liturgical rules for the seasons also need to be followed (no Alleluia, etc). The fact that the Roman Missal has prayers, propers and readings associated with the Nuptial Mass means that the Church considers these liturgies seperate entities that do not necessarily have to be joined to the Anticipated Sunday Mass.
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maryjk
Guest
Sorry I clipped your post so much, but I wanted to ask you about a couple of things.
What are FOCCUS tests? I googled it and it looks like a compatibility test. Is that something a parish would have a couple take after numerous years of a civil marriage?
What is a sponsor couple?
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agapewolf
Guest
I don’t know of the “nuptial mass” except when it is just a reference by folks here. We have a book that has the title “Rite of Marriage”. Inside there is a rite of marriage inside the mass and outisde the mass. I dont see anywhere where the words “nuptial mass” are used.
It is my understanding that a Catholic needs permission to marry a non-Catholic christian in general, this is NOT about having the marriage rite inside of mass. 2 different things.
And I was referring to the general couple that are both Catholic. Just like Baptisms, an understanding that this is a Sacrament that is a witness to the community. It makes complete sense.
As I said before, the practical concerns of this probably far outweigh the good, I don’t know. Rather than being so defensive, possibly take the post how it was meant. I was speaking about the point the poster made about the vows being “private”. They are not private.
It is my understanding that a Catholic needs permission to marry a non-Catholic christian in general, this is NOT about having the marriage rite inside of mass. 2 different things.
And I was referring to the general couple that are both Catholic. Just like Baptisms, an understanding that this is a Sacrament that is a witness to the community. It makes complete sense.
As I said before, the practical concerns of this probably far outweigh the good, I don’t know. Rather than being so defensive, possibly take the post how it was meant. I was speaking about the point the poster made about the vows being “private”. They are not private.
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benedictgal
Guest
The FOCCUS test is a compatability test. I guess my rector had them take it for the sake of documentation. The sponsor couple helps the couple getting ready for marriage by guiding them and providing an example to them as to what a good and solid Christian marriage should be.
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maryjk
Guest
Thanks. :tiphat:
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agapewolf
Guest
The foccus is not a compatibility test.
This is an inventory to see what kind of communication has already taken place. What the couple has realized they need to cover as important aspects of their marriage. It takes an inventory of how they each approach sex, money, conflict resolution, etc.
It cannot in any way deterimine whether a couple is “compatable”. It simply sheds light on their state of mind, their priorities, and some potential problems.
This is an inventory to see what kind of communication has already taken place. What the couple has realized they need to cover as important aspects of their marriage. It takes an inventory of how they each approach sex, money, conflict resolution, etc.
It cannot in any way deterimine whether a couple is “compatable”. It simply sheds light on their state of mind, their priorities, and some potential problems.
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benedictgal
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While I can see your point, there is no requirement, as far as I can tell, that the Mass where the wedding vows will be exchanged, must be the Anticipated Sunday Mass. Granted, at the Cathedral, many weddings happen to occur during that time because, since the Cathedral is a popular place for these, you often have one before the Anticipated Mass, during the Anticipated Mass and after. In fact, we have had seven such weddings in one weekend, all Masses celebrated by the rector.
While the vows are exchanged in front of the community, the rite does not specify just who that community is. The wedding guests would certainly count just as much as the parishioners would. Furthermore, it is not a private Mass, per se, since the weddings are published in the bulletin.
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benedictgal
Guest
In some cases, it is. I do not know the extent of your involvement in the weddings, but I have had to grade quite a few when I was helping out at the Cathedral. There have been times when some of the responses are vastly different between the couple, especially in issues like children (especially family planning), money, marital relations and other issues. This gives the priest the chance to address these very important issues that could very well develop into problems. In fact, the couple is encouraged to fill out the questionnaire apart.
It certainly helps to see where some of the potential problems, as you put it, will lie. It also gives the couple a chance to have an open and frank discussion about these matters. It’s not just about planning who will sing at the wedding, what color the bridesmaids dresses will be or where the reception wlll be. This is a life-long commitment that the couple will make to each other.
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agapewolf
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I never said it was a requirement.
Can people PLEASE read what I write?
I also stated it isn’t a private mass. It shouldn’t be…read what I was responding to.
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agapewolf
Guest
I already said all that, again, read what I write.
It is in no way a compatibility test. It in no way can “match” or show “compatibility”.
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benedictgal
Guest
When you state something is a “standard” that is the same as stating that it is a requirement. Granted, you said “ideal”, your use of standard can certainly be interpreted as saying that it is required, especially when you said that you were surprised that the party you were addressing did not seem to know this.
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agapewolf
Guest
The word “Standard” can be misleading, but it is not the exact same as saying it is a requirement.Anyawy, the word “ideal” is better.
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benedictgal
Guest
Tell that to DOL. I am working on a Standard Operational Procedure right now.
In their case, standard means required. 
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FrDavid96
Guest
It’s an equivalent term for “wedding Mass.”
Since you spent so much time reading through the “Rite of Marriage” for your earlier sentence, I’m surprised that you missed paragraph #8 in the “Rite of Marriage.” Here’s what it says:
In a marriage between a Cathoic and a baptized person who is not Catholic, the regulations which appear below in the rite of marriage outside Mass (nos. 39-54) shall be observed. If suitable, and if the Ordinary of the place gives permission, the rite for celebrating marriage within Mass (nos. 19-38) may be used, except that, according to the general law, communion is not given to the non-Catholic.
You are confusing two different things. It is one thing to say that the celebration of the Sacrament is a public event, which should be a celebration of the entire community, and on the other hand saying that it should be done within the context of the Sunday parish Mass. One does not necessarily follow from the other. “2 different things.”
Earlier, you said “The marriage is a witness to the church and the world. Within the context of the community’s worship is the ideal place for it. This is a standard. I’m surprised that you didn’t know this.” That statement simply isn’t true because marriage within the Sunday parish Mass is far from being the standard, or the ideal situation. It is more the exception than anything else. The USBBC in suggesting wedding policies (usccb.org/laity/marriage/mpanalysis.shtml) says that “Few parishes celebrate weddings on Sundays” So I can hardly see how this is the “standard.” I can see the value of it, but I can also see it becoming a distraction from the proper place of the Sunday parish Mass as a celebration of the Pascal Mystery.
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agapewolf
Guest
I know that you understand that usccb is stating such because of the common perception of “weddings” is the private mass/event. This statement is not negating my point as few parishes do not have private wedding masses themselves on a Sunday.
And no one wants their wedding done at a parish mass because they want the whole show. I still dont’ undertand why you dont’ undertand this. Yes, it would be a distraction because of the way the general societal standard today of weddings happens to be. This is a far cry from the sacred Sacrament it is called to be.
I’m talking about the IDEAL here folks, not the practicality of it. I really do not understand why there is even an argument about this, from a priest of all people. Why in the world would you not see that this would be an ideal? No, it isnt’ what exists today, especially the way the “Wedding” is perceived today. but in response to someone who said that the vows were a “private” event, such a sensate answer to pick on one particular word and missing the whole meaning seems to be an fruitless exercise.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Here’s why I’m so concerned. You referred to the wedding within the Sunday Parish Mass as the “ideal” and the “standard.” When you use those words, they convey the idea to people that this is what is supposed to happen; That’s what the words “ideal” and especially “standard” mean. To put it another way, it would be quite natural for a couple preparing for marriage to read your post and come away having the idea that the proper place for their own upcoming wedding would be at the Sunday parish Mass, and could quite possibly get the impression that when their own pastor tells them that the proper time for their own wedding would be a Saturday morning or early afternoon, they might feel slighted or question why their pastor won’t schedule their own wedding at the “ideal” or "standard’ time.
There is also the purely objective reason that the statement claiming that the Sunday parish Mass is the ideal/standard time for a wedding is simply untrue. It is neither ideal, nor is it standard practice.
The ideal is that the wedding be celebrated as a parish celebration, yes indeed. But to do so during the Sunday parish Mass is not at all the ideal because (in most instances but not all) it is in fact a distraction from the parish’s celebration of the Sunday Mass–ie the Pascal Mystery.
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agapewolf
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First of all, I already corrected the word “standard”
Actually, all of the priests I know would be absolutely delighted if a couple were to ask to have their wedding at a normal Sunday mass. And we both know that there would be hardly any, if at all that would request this because of what it suggests. They couldn’t have everything they dreamed of if it were to take place there. There would be many many restrictions to what they would do, because all it would be is they would process in as called for by the rite, then after the homily state their vows, and a nuptial blessing. No fluff at all. This happens all the time with anniversary/renewal of vows.
The restrictions to the marriage rite if done on a Sunday would prohibit it from being a distraction.
And again, for like the 3rd or 4th time, this is in response to someone who said the vows were “private”.
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