Review and Comment "Doctrines of Grace"

[fatimadotorg4tr]

To those interested,

I have a college friend (from way back when) who is, by his own description, a preacher of the Word of God. And having listened to him I can’t gainsay him on his self-description because he doesn’t preach creeds, or council decrees or encyclical letters or catechisms. It’s just Bible verses and then a few words on what the verses says in english.

One of his sermons is posted on Google video at:

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2993962159510857534&hl=en

In this sermon, he basically reviews the biblical evidence for the “Doctrines of Grace” especially in the Gospel of John Chapter 6.

Now I know that as Catholics we are taught – perhaps this is going to be an oversimplification – that we DO things which God has indicated are pleasing to Him, and in so doing (works) we please God, are in His grace, and ultimately are rewarded.

My friend, preaching from the Bible, shows that another conclusion is indicated from the words of Holy Scripture: God chooses us of His own will, and then perfects us according to His pleasure by His grace working in us (Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith). What God has chosen, He brings to perfection without fail; none of what the Father has given to Jesus can be plucked out of His hands. No work of man can work or be efficacious unto salvation else the bloody sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross would be deficient, in need of something . (When we say that our sacrifices “fill up the sufferings of Christ” we dilute the absolute perfection of His sacrifice.) And, anyone who says that the works of any man other than the Lord Jesus Christ are efficacious unto salvation, contradicts the Word of God.

So, without contradicting the scripture that Pastor Turner quotes, how can the things we do of our own so-called “free will” affect our acceptance into heaven? If the work of God is to believe on Him whom He has sent, how can we have any confidence in the performance of works when even our believing on Him IS the work of God?

(For the record, I was baptised and raised Catholic. I’ve lived my entire adult life in adherence to traditional Roman Catholic teachings and rites (e.g.Tridentine Mass). I’ve been a staunch defender of Catholic dogmatic teaching in a number of newsgroups (battling the atheists at alt.philosophy and alt.philosophy.debate) and bulletin boards (e.g. the MyLifeAfter forum established in conjunction with release of the movie “The Passion of the Christ”.)
That being said, I don’t in my heart have a way to gainsay what my friend preaches without in my mind seeming to contradict the easily read and understood Word of God.)

That’s all I’ll say in this thread. I appreciate your opinions, and comments, and will meditate upon them.

God’s blessings and grace be unto His elect, in the name of Jesus Christ the Lord.

 

[Nita]

Hi fatima,

As Catholics, we too believe that the infusion of sanctifying grace (supernatural life of God) into our souls is a free gift from God - that is, we don’t merit receiving it in Baptism by performing good works beforehand. Faith however is required - by the parents if it is a baby/child being baptized; by the catechumen if it is an older person. “Election” by God to receive this gift is particularly obvious in the case of infant baptism; it was God who chooses which family each person will be born into. (Eg. He chose to have me be born to faithful Catholic parents, thus ensuring my baptism as an infant.) In regards to others coming to faith and receiving Baptism, we believe that also comes about through God’s working - bestowing graces upon them. But, we make a distinction between these temporary (actual grace) graces and the grace (sanctifying grace) which must be present in our souls in order to be saved. I would say that your friend probably has an incomplete understanding of the meanings and usages of the word “grace”. The teaching in many non-Catholic denominations is not nearly as developed as ours.

We believe the life of sanctifying grace can grow in us through obedience to Our Lord (prayer (spiritual works) and charitable acts (corporal works of mercy). We believe that our works here do have merit in regards to the rewards we will experience in heaven. Here are just a few passages that support our belief:
Mt.16:27 He will render to every one according to his works."
1 Cor 3:8 And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour.
2 Cor 9:6 He who soweth sparingly shall also reap sparingly: and he that soweth in blessings shall also reap blessings.

So, without contradicting the scripture that Pastor Turner quotes, how can the things we do of our own so-called “free will” affect our acceptance into heaven? If the work of God is to believe on Him whom He has sent, how can we have any confidence in the performance of works when even our believing on Him IS the work of God?

We believe we can destroy and lose this life of grace through our actions. Once baptized, obedience is required to remain in God’s grace.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Mt. 25 All of the judgement parables in this chapter concern our judgement after death (those in the parable enter either into eternal happiness or eternal damnation). Their deeds determine which.

It is the grace of God working in us (the power of His life) - but WE HAVE TO COOPERATE and act in accord with Him. **Cooperation is what we must “do” **and that cooperation with His grace involves doing the things (works) He has commanded. **It is **with our “free will” that we decide to either cooperate or not cooperate.

(When we say that our sacrifices “fill up the sufferings of Christ” we dilute the absolute perfection of His sacrifice.)

You might tell your friend that “we” did not originate this teaching but rather St. Paul and it is recorded in Scripture by God’s will.
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Nita

 

[Light_Seeker]

God chooses us of His own will, and then perfects us according to His pleasure by His grace working in us (Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith). What God has chosen, He brings to perfection without fail

If true, then why did God give humanity free will?

If true, then everyone would have eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

If true, there would be no need for eternal judgment.

If true, there would be no need for our Lord’s passion!

Note, I did not watch this video based on this overview. If this is addressed, please ignore my comments.

 

[Benadam]

I think you could point out that his doctrin that supports his view of ‘Our’ salvation, is founded on what God is and has done and has promised etc.

Catholic doctrin for the same is founded on what we are and have done and have promised to do etc. as well. Now while we were yet in sin God graced us. The grace to know God and our response to it are fundamental.

It’s not God’s traits that we need to reassure ourselves about in regards of salvation they aren’t subject to change.

It’s our response to grace and our love for God that should be the most important untill our love for God has become familial.

Our destiny is not revealed to us but can only be considered real in in eternity. Something that exists in eternity, our destiny is an eternal reality, can’t be plugged into the state our lives exist in. Different order different laws.

The Election flows from God’s omniscience. God knows who will choose Him. God knows who is destined who are the Elect. They are who God knows elect and choose Him, and His grace is given more abundantly to them.

 

[Ruthie]

I, too, didn’t listen to the sermon. (I’d rather read them; I’m a fast reader, but a slow “listener.”)

But, here’s an article that might help you.

Out of curiosity, how does he explain free will?

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[ryanoneil]

It is heritical to say that the suffering of Christ was not sufficient for redemption and that the suffering of the saints must be added to complete it. But Christ and the Church are one mystical person, and while the merits of Christ (the head) are infinite, the saints acquire merit in a limited degree.

What is “lacking” pertains to the affliction of the entire Church. The suffering tht remains for believers is the trials of life. Suffering is a mission for all of us as a means to conform ourselves to Christ.

**The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. (Rom 8:16-17)

More than that, I even consider everything as a loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God, depending on faith to know him and the power of his resurrection and (the) sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. (Phil 3:8-11)**

 

[ryanoneil]

CCC 1508 The Holy Spirit gives to some a special charism of healing so as to make manifest the power of the grace of the risen Lord. But even the most intense prayers do not always obtain the healing of all illnesses. Thus St. Paul must learn from the Lord that “my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness,” and that the sufferings to be endured can mean that “in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his Body, that is, the Church.”

CCC 307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it. God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.

CCC 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”. But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”, for “Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps.” In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.

 

[PEPCIS]

"fatimadotorg4tr:

God chooses us of His own will, and then perfects us according to His pleasure by His grace working in us (Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith). What God has chosen, He brings to perfection without fail

If true, then why did God give humanity free will?

He didn’t.

If true, then everyone would have eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

How so?

If true, there would be no need for eternal judgment.

Why not?

If true, there would be no need for our Lord’s passion!

Please explain.

 

[M0nkey]

(When we say that our sacrifices “fill up the sufferings of Christ” we dilute the absolute perfection of His sacrifice.)

I will attempt to refute this as short as I can. As christians we are called to fulfill the sufferings of Christ. For it is written: “provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.”

 

[Pete_Holter]

All that the Father has given to Jesus will come, and Jesus will raise them up on the last day.

I think that the only true difference between the reformed position and the Catholic position, as it pertains to the perseverance of the saints, is that the Catholic Church teaches that a person can be truly constituted a Christian and yet not receive the gift of final perseverance. The Catholic tradition understands that a person can lose his justification.

It may be that this passage speaks of the elect. The elect will undoubtedly, by the grace of God, persevere to the end. The non elect, on account of their sin, will not.

In accordance with John 6, the elect come to Jesus and believe on Him in a way that is qualitatively different from those who merely come and believe but ultimately fall away. “They were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us” (1 John 2:19). It is precisely the element of perseverance that differentiates the two groups of Christians. And yet, both those who remain and those who went out, are/were Christians. The elect may fall away for a time as well, but they will regain their justification before the end of their life. For they have come, and so they will be raised!

It may also be that Jesus has left the “if” clauses presupposed and unstated. If this is the case, then we could think that Jesus is really saying something like, All of you who come to Me, I will raise up on the last day, “provided you continue in His kindness” (Rom 11:22). All of you who come to Me, I will raise up on the last day, “if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast” (Col 1:23).

Eternal life in John 6 can be thought of as a state of being. “This is eternal life, that they know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). To know God is to be in intimate relation with Him by the divine life He gives to us in the sacraments through faith in His Son. We can lose this quality of union through sin: “You [Christians] are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace” (Gal 5:4). “If anyone does not abide in Me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned” (John 15:6).

In Hebrews, within the context of exhorting believers to persevere against sin (cf. 12:4), we are warned not to fail “to obtain the grace of God” (12:15), and in so failing be rejected like Esau who “found no chance to repent” (12:17).

In Paul’s letter to the Philippians – where he tells them that he is sure that “He Who began a good work in them would bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” – he is also cognizant of the possibility that he may “run in vain or labor in vain” over these same believers (2:16), evidently meaning that they may fail to work out their “salvation with fear and trembling,” and that there is the possibility that both he and they “should be disqualified” and so fail to win “the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” (1 Cor 9:27; Phil 3:14).

Peter speaks of those who “have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet 2:20), and who were subsequently overcome. And what is the knowledge of Jesus Christ but the knowledge of the truth by which we are saved (cf. 1 Tim 2:3-4)?

Hebrews 6 says that it is impossible to restore people to repentance once they have fallen away. The repentance being spoken of here must be the “repentance that leads to salvation” (2 Cor 7:10), that is, the repentance granted by God that leads “to a knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim. 2:25), and the repentance that prompts our sins being “blotted out” (Acts 3:19); for why would we be concerned about their being restored to any other kind of repentance besides this one? They must have repented and so been saved at some point, but are not saved anymore as the author goes on to talk about “things that belong to salvation.” For while all the good things listed in verses 4 and 5 pertain to salvation in a person who is saved, they do not so pertain in the life of one who has fallen away. Rather, they increase the awarded condemnation.

 

[Pete_Holter]

My friend, preaching from the Bible, shows that another conclusion is indicated from the words of Holy Scripture: God chooses us of His own will

Absolutely! His choice of us is “according to the riches of His grace,” “according to His purpose,” and “not because of works but because of Him Who calls.” (Eph 1:7, 1:9, Rom 9:11).

and then perfects us according to His pleasure by His grace working in us (Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith).

That’s right! “For it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). “And I am sure of this, that He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6). And “You have indeed done for us all our works” (Isaiah 26:12).

What God has chosen, He brings to perfection without fail; none of what the Father has given to Jesus can be plucked out of His hands.

That’s right. God has chosen the elect and they will be saved on the Day of Judgment.

If the work of God is to believe on Him whom He has sent, how can we have any confidence in the performance of works when even our believing on Him IS the work of God?

Yes, our confidence is in Him and we “put no confidence in the flesh” (Phil 3:3). Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! (cf. John 15:5). “It depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (Rom 9:16). “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all” (John 6:63). “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor 4:7), “All this is from God” (2 Cor. 5:18). “But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me” (1 Cor 15:10), etc.

“After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself” (CCC 2011).

“If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say! For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).

“We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:

“When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).

“Forasmuch as he is also able to reject [the prevenient grace of God], yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: “Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,” we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer, “Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,” we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God” (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5).

We have free will in the sense that we are not coerced into doing things that we do not want to do. But it is God’s will that is decisive in all things pertaining to salvation and the response of our will is wholly dependent upon His initiating and sustaining grace. We are saved on account of God’s grace; we go to hell on account of our sin.

To better understand the Catholic position on the doctrine of grace, I would read from the Doctor of Grace, St. Augustine’s, Predestination of the Saints, Gift of Perseverance, and Rebuke and Grace; I also recommend the Canons of the Council of Orange.

See how much agreement there is! Perhaps your friend is closer to embracing Catholicism than he realizes.

May he be saved on the day of God’s wrath! And may God bless you!