M
malphono
Guest
Thanks. That was interesting.
Even if true, though, I cannot but think that
is spot-on.
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Even if true, though, I cannot but think that
M
malphono
Guest
The thing with the kid in the candy store, of course, is that his/her fingers are sticky from shoving them into every available bag of bon-bons.malphono;6414794:
More like an elephant in a china shop!That person was rather like a kid in a candy store, wasn’t he?
But of course, either analogy works. And in this particular case, both are even better.
T
Theophorus
Guest
Thats not entirely true the office has been revised and simplified numerous times over the centuries (notably by the council of Trent, by Popes Clement VIII, Urban VIII, and Pope Saint Pius X) before Fr. Bugnini got anywhere near it. Granted Fr. Bugnini swung the biggest axe but not the first.
O
OraLabora
Guest
You’re correct of course; but I was thinking of the current remake that had it’s roots in the work started by Fr. Bugnini in the 40s and completed after Vatican II which gave renewed interest in pursuing further reforms.
A good summary is from Breviary to Liturgy of the Hours by Stanislaus Campbell. A very interesting if somewhat dry read on how we came to where we are today.
St Pius X’s revision in the early 20th century was pretty major as well.
The blog entry seems to indicate that the Preces would be the major focus. Phew, that scares me less. There always was some latitude there I think. I know our abbey has its own; Solesmes has its own booklet of Preces notated for Gregorian Chant.
I’d be more worried about changes to antiphons and the psalter.
B
BVM_1221
Guest
This posting prompted me to telephone my old friend Madeline Pecora Nugent, author of THE DIVINE OFFICE FOR DODOS. DODOS = Devout Obedient Disciples of Our Savior.:bowdown:Hi all - I’m wondering if anyone can direct me to any information about the possibility of the Divine Office being revised or updated this year.
I heard a rumor about it at my church and I’m curious.
Thank you -
She has heard nothing about it. Also, her book is going into another printing from the Catholic Book Publishing Company. This company also publishes the brevieries. They did not ask her to hold off and re-write the book when the new edition came out, implying that it will be a long time, if ever, before it comes out.:coffeeread:
Another question I asked her concerned the use of the older breviary when the new one came out. Would it be OK to save money and use the older breviary? She was not sure about that. I note that over in the Traditionalist Forum, a few are awaiting a re-print of the pre-1962 complete breviary in Latin and English. I assume they would prefer useing that version to the more modern versions.
So it would seem that we have quite a few years to go as far as buying a newer version goes, and we may not be REQUIRED to buy the new version. :dts:
DISCLAIMER: Although I encourage everyone to buy a copy of the DODOS book, I do not get a cut of the royalties
C
CDNowak
Guest
For personal use, certainly a member of the laity could use any previously approved version of the Daily Office, from any Rite of the Church (on that note, anyone know if there is an approved Anglican Use LotH yet?). For public use, and perhaps by clerics and religious, the most recent in the particular form, use, or rite (including pre 1962 edition) would seem to be required, based on past phrasing of decrees of issue.Another question I asked her concerned the use of the older breviary when the new one came out. Would it be OK to save money and use the older breviary? She was not sure about that. I note that over in the Traditionalist Forum, a few are awaiting a re-print of the pre-1962 complete breviary in Latin and English. I assume they would prefer useing that version to the more modern versions.
If the rumor that the Vatican is looking at making changes that may be why there seems to be little to no chatter on a retranslation. I actually remember that there had been some talk of a new English translation of the LotH back when the first sections of the Missal were coming.
O
OraLabora
Guest
I believe the Anglican use allows the Book of Common Prayer as missal. If so it also contains the Anglican version of the Divine Office, Morning Prayer and Evensong.
I’m guessing but I suspect that’s what they’ll be using.
C
CDNowak
Guest
Makes sense, and makes that an option for at least private use.
J
JerrySeibert
Guest
Forgive my ignorance as I have only been praying the LOTH for about six months. But, what is a Diurnal?
And I am astonished, for all I knew of were the 4 volume 1 volume (Christian Prayer) and a Pocket Breviary. Wow, what else am I missing?
And I am astonished, for all I knew of were the 4 volume 1 volume (Christian Prayer) and a Pocket Breviary. Wow, what else am I missing?
O
OraLabora
Guest
Hmm… where to start. First question is the easiest: what is a diurnal? It is a book that contains the daytime offices only. In other words it didn’t include Vigils. It’s a bit of a toss as to whether we can call any LOH book a “diurnal” since the Office of Readings is meant to be said at any convenient time. However some like myself use it as Vigils, prayed very early in the morning.
So typically a diurnal would include Lauds, Tierce, Sexte, None, Vespers and Compline. Diurnals were quite common for the monastic office as Benedictine (or Cistercian or Carthusian) Vigils could be quite long, and even a diurnal antiphonary is a very large and unwieldy book to maneuver when chanting the office. Benedictines and Cistercians using the traditional Benedictine office would pray 2 nocturnes of 6 psalms each with two long readings (scriptural and patristic) and on Sundays and feast days a 3d nocturne of OT canticles, a Gospel reading, the Te Decet Laus, a third reading (patristic), the Te Deum (except Sundays of lent), and the collect. Almost a breviary in itself and certainly an antiphonary in itself for those chanting it. In the 4-vol LOH there’s a vestige of this 3d nocturne as an appendix to be used for those using Office of Readings as true Vigils.
For the current LOH, it is now possible to chant all except Office of Readings in Latin Gregorian chant with a “diurnal” antiphonary put out by the Communauté Saint-Martin in France. It includes the entire office except for Office of Readings, and includes a liturgically-approved French translation alongside the Latin. It’s what I use for the day offices, and I do Office of Readings very early in the morning either chanted recto-tono or just recited. Yes, it has imprimatur and nihil obstat and all that. And Solesmes has finally started to meter out the new Roman Antiphonary starting with a Vesperale (Vespers of Sundays and feasts). I haven’t picked it up yet. It is actually the second volume of the Roman Antiphonary, the first being the 1983 Hymnal that Solesmes (charged with creating the antiphonary) has already released.
The shorter 1-volume LOH does not contain the readings for the Office of Readings.
And of course monastic and other religious communities have their own breviaries. The Benedictines (and some Cistercians as well) have the oldest continuous Divine Office schema still in existence, their “schema A”, which is the exact psalter that St. Benedict spelled out in his rule 1500 years ago, in which one recites 255 psalms in a week (obviously with many repetitions). There are other Benedictine schemas as well. Schema B came after Vatican II, and includes the entire psalter of 150 psalms in a week. Schemas C and D also after the Council, are on 2-week psalter cycles. Schema B is currently the most popular in Benedictine abbeys, and Schema A is still used frequently especially in the Solesmes congregation.
One point to note is for the Benedictine traditional office the psalm order is the same as spelled out by St. Benedict in his rule, the other parts of the office except for the Benedictine Propers are in concordance with the 4-volume LOH that you use, so same readings, collects, etc., and same choice of 1 or 2 year lectionaries at least for the scripture readings.
Lastly, the source for all this is the Thesaurus of the LOH, a huge book I’ve never seen that includes all the mandatory and optional elements for all offices including the ones proper to religious communities that have had their office approved by Rome (I believe the one for the Carthusians is still pending). But it is not usable in choir, it is a reference work only.
Hope that helps. It’s not a simple topic!
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