Revised GIRM

[thistle]

From searches I can only conclude that the only approved English translation so far of the revised GIRM was for the Dioceses of the USA but that includes the adaptations for the USA. I have listed these adaptations below (in bold). As I don’t speak Latin I can’t find out what the original sections are in the original revised GIRM in Latin before the adaptations for the USA English translation. Can anybody tell me what they say. Someone would have to read the Latin version and translate. The reason I ask is that several heated talking points are based on what the GIRM says but of course only the USA one applies to the USA and not to other countries who may stick to the original or maybe have their own adaptations.

**390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include

The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);

The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);

The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);

The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);

The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);

The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);

The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above). **

 

[jimmy]

You might need to offer the latin text so that we can look at it.

 

[thistle]

jimmy:

You might need to offer the latin text so that we can look at it.

That’s fair. I’ll try to track it down.

 

[tee_eff_em]

thistle:

That’s fair. I’ll try to track it down.

Missale Romanum

tee

 

[thistle]

Maybe we can start with this one.

**Ritus pacis

1. Sequitur ritus pacis, quo Ecclesia pacem et unitatem pro se ipsa et universa hominum familia implorat et fideles ecclesialem communionem mutuamque caritatem sibi exprimunt, priusquam Sacramento communicent.

Ad ipsum signum pacis tradendae quod attinet, modus a Conferentiis Episcoporum, secundum ingenium et mores populorum, statuatur. Convenit tamen ut unusquisque solummodo sibi propinquioribus sobrie pacem significet**.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I’ll try to address one at a time the points listed in USCCB Adaptations to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, as I am able.

First:

This adaptation will be inserted at number 43, paragraph 2:

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

IGMR:

Sedeant autem dum proferuntur lectiones ante Evangelium et psalmus responsorius; ad homiliam et dum fit praeparatio donorum ad offertorium; atque, pro opportunitate, dum sacrum silentium post Communionem servatu.

The USCCB has inserted the (bold) words “…**they may sit or kneel **while the period of sacred silence…” (in the original “they should sit”, continuing from the preceeding clauses, is understood).

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

thistle:

Maybe we can start with this one.

Ritus pacis.

The USCCB does not seem to have altered this text in translation. They may have established the manner for the sign of peace in another document, but not in the GIRM.

tee

 

[thistle]

tee_eff_em:

The USCCB does not seem to have altered this text in translation. They may have established the manner for the sign of peace in another document, but not in the GIRM.

tee

**160. Sacerdos deinde accipit patenam vel pyxidem, et accedit ad communicandos, qui de more processionaliter approprinquant.

Non licet ipsis fidelibus panem consecratum neque calicem sacrum per semetipsos accipere eo minus de manu in manum inter se transmittere. Fideles communicant genuflexi vel stantes, prout Conferentia Episcoporum statuerit. Cum autem stantes communicant, commendatur ut debitam reverentiam, ab iisdem normis statuendam, ante susceptionem Sacramenti faciant.

1. Communio sub utraque specie permittitur, praeter casus in libris ritualibus expositos:

a) sacerdotibus qui sacrum celebrare vel concelebrare non possunt;

b) diacono et ceteris qui aliquod officium in Missa implent;

c) sodalibus communitatum in Missa conventuali vel in illa quae “communitatis” dicitur, alumnis seminariorum, omnibus qui exercitiis spiritualibus vacant vel conventum spiritualem aut pastoralem participant.

Episcopus dioecesanus normas circa Communionem sub utraque specie pro sua dioecesi definire potest, etiam in ecclesiis religiosorum et in parvis coetibus servandas. Eidem Episcopo facultas datur Communionem sub utraque specie permittendi, quoties id sacerdoti cui, uti pastori proprio, communitas commissa est, opportunum videatur, dummodo fideles bene instructi sint et absit omne periculum profanationis Sacramenti, vel ritus difficilior evadat ob multitudinem participantium aliamve causam.

Quod autem ad modum distribuendi fidelibus sacram Communionem sub utraque specie, et ad facultatis extensionem Conferentiae Episcoporum normas edere possunt, actis a Sede Apostolica recognitis.**

Sorry I’m late in giving you the next one but here we are at least 12 hours ahead so I went to bed after reading your post.

With regard to the sign of peace being the same. Why would it be specified as a specific adaptation for USA if nothing had changed?

 

[tee_eff_em]

thistle:

With regard to the sign of peace being the same. Why would it be specified as a specific adaptation for USA if nothing had changed?

It is not specified as an adaptation for the USA – When you posted [post=1091165]the English text of GIRM #390[/post], that was a faithful translation of the Latin, which refers to specific places the bishops’ conferences are permitted to adapt.

***390. Conferentiarum Episcoporum est aptationes definire et, actis a Sede Apostolica recognitis, in ipsum Missale introducere, quae in hac Institutione generali et in Ordine Missae indicantur, uti sunt:

– fidelium gestus et corporis habitus (cf. supra, n. 43);

– gestus venerationis erga altare et Evangeliarium (cf. supra, n. 273);

– textus cantuum ad introitum, ad praesentationem donorum et ad Communionem (cf. supra, nn. 48, 74, 87);

– lectiones e Sacra Scriptura peculiaribus in adiunctis desumendae (cf. supra, n. 362);

– forma pro pace tradenda (cf. supra, n. 82);

– modus sacrae Communionis recipiendae (cf. supra, nn. 160, 283);

– materia altaris et sacrae supellectilis, praesertim sacrorum vasorum, necnon materia, forma et color vestium liturgicarum (cf. supra, nn. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346).

Directoria vero aut Instructiones pastorales, quas Conferentiae Episcoporum utiles iudicaverint, praevia Apostolicae Sedis recognitione, in Missale Romanum, loco opportuno, induci poterunt.***

To see what the US *has in fact *adapted, see for the Dioceses of the United States of America*Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia *.

tee

 

[thistle]

tee_eff_em:

It is not specified as an adaptation for the USA – When you posted [post=1091165]the English text of GIRM #390[/post], that was a faithful translation of the Latin, which refers to specific places the bishops’ conferences are permitted to adapt.

***390. Conferentiarum Episcoporum est aptationes definire et, actis a Sede Apostolica recognitis, in ipsum Missale introducere, quae in hac Institutione generali et in Ordine Missae indicantur, uti sunt:

– fidelium gestus et corporis habitus (cf. supra, n. 43);

– gestus venerationis erga altare et Evangeliarium (cf. supra, n. 273);

– textus cantuum ad introitum, ad praesentationem donorum et ad Communionem (cf. supra, nn. 48, 74, 87);

– lectiones e Sacra Scriptura peculiaribus in adiunctis desumendae (cf. supra, n. 362);

– forma pro pace tradenda (cf. supra, n. 82);

– modus sacrae Communionis recipiendae (cf. supra, nn. 160, 283);

– materia altaris et sacrae supellectilis, praesertim sacrorum vasorum, necnon materia, forma et color vestium liturgicarum (cf. supra, nn. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346).

Directoria vero aut Instructiones pastorales, quas Conferentiae Episcoporum utiles iudicaverint, praevia Apostolicae Sedis recognitione, in Missale Romanum, loco opportuno, induci poterunt.***

To see what the US *has in fact *adapted, see Adaptations of the *Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia *for the Dioceses of the United States of America.

tee

I’ve read it and so I know that I understand I’ll use one adaptation as an example below:

Distribution of Holy Communion
This adaptation will take the place of number 160, paragraph 2:

The faithful are not permitted to take up the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice themselves, and still less, hand them on to one another. **The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.**

According to the site the adaptations are marked in bold. Does that mean in the Latin version there is only the first sentence starting The Faithful…and that the bold is an addition to number 160 or is the bold a change to the English equivalent of the Latin wording? If so, what did the Latin say before the changes?

 

[paramedicgirl]

Does anyone know if there is a GIRM for Canada, or do we follow the US edition?

 

[Dale_B]

bump for a Canadian GIRM source

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

why can’t we have a ONE GIRM for all countries. Lucky for the countries which follows most of the things of that in the vatican but sad for us in which the instruction is very different from that of the main GIRM.

Here in the Philippines you can never see a priest or even a bishop bowing when Jesus name was mentioned in Gloria or Credo. That after the consecration people stood up instead of kneeling. And unsuitable songs for the mass (like fast songs during communion or something like that).

The Credo that we use is the apostles creed which is very limited compared to the nicene creed.

They insert lots of words in the mass like before singing of the Lords Prayer they say something which is not in the norms like instead of “preceptis salutaribus moniti…” (in our own language), they say differently like :" lets hold our hands and together we pray to our Father… etc etc.:

 

[tee_eff_em]

thistle:

According to the site the adaptations are marked in bold. Does that mean in the Latin version there is only the first sentence starting The Faithful…and that the bold is an addition to number 160 or is the bold a change to the English equivalent of the Latin wording? If so, what did the Latin say before the changes?

Two sentences from the Latin are replaced and expanded into the norm for the US. The *IGMR *reads:

1. *Sacerdos deinde accipit patenam vel pyxidem, et accedit ad communicandos, qui de more processionaliter approprinquant.

Non licet ipsis fidelibus panem consecratum neque calicem sacrum per semetipsos accipere eo minus de manu in manum inter se transmittere. Fideles communicant genuflexi vel stantes, prout Conferentia Episcoporum statuerit. Cum autem stantes communicant, commendatur ut debitam reverentiam, ab iisdem normis statuendam, ante susceptionem Sacramenti faciant.*

Following is the ICEL translation of the first part, with my own (bold) translation of the final two sentences.

1. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The faithful receive kneeling or standing, as determined by the Conference of Bishops. However when they receive standing, it is recommended that before receiving the Eucharist they make a due reverence, established by these same norms.

It seems to me the USCCB has made an adaptation allowed to them and provided a generous explanation of the norms for their jurisdiction.

tee

 

[muledog]

thistle:

From searches I can only conclude that the only approved English translation so far of the revised GIRM was for the Dioceses of the USA but that includes the adaptations for the USA. I have listed these adaptations below (in bold). As I don’t speak Latin I can’t find out what the original sections are in the original revised GIRM in Latin before the adaptations for the USA English translation. Can anybody tell me what they say. Someone would have to read the Latin version and translate. The reason I ask is that several heated talking points are based on what the GIRM says but of course only the USA one applies to the USA and not to other countries who may stick to the original or maybe have their own adaptations.

The USCCB issued an English translation “Study Edition” of the new GIRM back in 2000. It did not contain any of the adaptations later approved by the U.S. bishops. It can be found here.

One of the major differences comes in paragraph 43. I’ll post the universal norm, and then the adapted norm for the United States. I have emphasized major differences in bold print.
Universal GIRM:

The faithful should stand from the beginning of the opening song or when the priest enters until the end of the opening prayer or collect; for the singing of the Alleluia before the gospel reading; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the profession of faith and the general intercessions; from the invitatory, Pray that our sacrifice…, before the prayer over the gifts to the end of the Mass, except at the places indicated later in this paragraph.

They should sit during the readings before the gospel reading and during the responsorial psalm, for the homily and the preparation of the gifts, and, if this seems helpful, during the period of religious silence after communion.

They should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented by reasons of health, lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason. However, those who do not kneel at the consecration ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

But it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and posture in the Order of the Mass to the customs and reasonable traditions of the people according to the norm of law. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, this is laudably retained. For the sake of observing a uniformity in gestures andposture during the same celebration, the faithful should obey the directions which the deacon or a lay person or the priest give during the celebration, according to whatever is indicated in the liturgical books.

U.S. GIRM:

The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

Our bishop has used this “adaptation” to require everyone to stand after the Agnus Dei, even though the vast majority of priests, parishioners were against the change (and still are).

 

[thistle]

viktor aleksndr:

why can’t we have a ONE GIRM for all countries. Lucky for the countries which follows most of the things of that in the vatican but sad for us in which the instruction is very different from that of the main GIRM.

Here in the Philippines you can never see a priest or even a bishop bowing when Jesus name was mentioned in Gloria or Credo. That after the consecration people stood up instead of kneeling. And unsuitable songs for the mass (like fast songs during communion or something like that).

The Credo that we use is the apostles creed which is very limited compared to the nicene creed.

They insert lots of words in the mass like before singing of the Lords Prayer they say something which is not in the norms like instead of “preceptis salutaribus moniti…” (in our own language), they say differently like :" lets hold our hands and together we pray to our Father… etc etc.:

I live in the Philippines and I don’t see problems with the Mass here. Which parish church do you attend?

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

thistle:

I live in the Philippines and I don’t see problems with the Mass here. Which parish church do you attend?

I dont have much problem on my parish but in other parish especially those which are on air via television which i can say an abuse to the mass. Ex. liturgical dancing, raising of hands during consecration, singing when the Sacred Host is shown to the people.

But what i am observe is the simple gestures which is in the Universal GIRM like :

a. A bow of the head is made when the three divine Persons are named together and at the name of Jesus, Mary and the saint in whose honor Mass is celebrated.

A bow during the credo where the line when Jesus became man.

I hope that after the consecration the faithful will remain kneeling until after the great amen. This is a part where we give great reverence to the exposed Eucharist.

And i hope that what is in the Roman Missal especially in the Liturgy of the Eucahrist will be followed and the priests will not invent any sentences of their own.

I think what we need in parishes is a simple, solemn, with great reverence Holy Mass like the Holy Mass in EWTN.

 

[porthos11]

viktor aleksndr:

I hope that after the consecration the faithful will remain kneeling until after the great amen. This is a part where we give great reverence to the exposed Eucharist.

In the Philippines, the norm is now to stand after the Consecration and to remain standing (not kneel) after the Agnus Dei. I regret the change, but the CBCP is well within their rights, and is allowed for in the Editio Typica of the GIRM.

And i hope that what is in the Roman Missal especially in the Liturgy of the Eucahrist will be followed and the priests will not invent any sentences of their own.

I think what we need in parishes is a simple, solemn, with great reverence Holy Mass like the Holy Mass in EWTN.

Agreed here. I’m happy that in the Shrine of Blessed Pedro Calungsod in Cebu the Masses are reverent and solemn. Sunday Masses are glorious with a great choir with classical sacred music, while every first Friday, my choir serves at the Gregorian chant Mass (minimal songs, Entrance and Communion antiphons only, Greek Kyrie, Latin Sanctus and Agnus Dei, chanted English Lord’s Prayer from the Sacramentary, a capella all throughout).

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

porthos11:

In the Philippines, the norm is now to stand after the Consecration and to remain standing (not kneel) after the Agnus Dei. I regret the change, but the CBCP is well within their rights, and is allowed for in the Editio Typica of the GIRM.

Agreed here. I’m happy that in the Shrine of Blessed Pedro Calungsod in Cebu the Masses are reverent and solemn. Sunday Masses are glorious with a great choir with classical sacred music, while every first Friday, my choir serves at the Gregorian chant Mass (minimal songs, Entrance and Communion antiphons only, Greek Kyrie, Latin Sanctus and Agnus Dei, chanted English Lord’s Prayer from the Sacramentary, a capella all throughout).

WOW! are you serious? i thought that Filipino Priests hates the gregorian chants. Just kidding!

I just hope that priests here in my diocese will be open for more traditional and conservative way of celebrating the liturgy with latin songs and gregorian chants.

Can we ask the CBCP to obliged the diocese at least once a month to celebrate this kind of Holy Mass? I think it is time to open the eyes and mind of the people on the beauty and solemnity of the old tradition of the Mass.

 

[thistle]

I’m not for or against a Latin Mass. I’m happy to participate in whatever the Church approves and it approves Latin and vernacular. I never been to a Latin Mass but here in the Philippines I attend St Judes Novena every week and although all the speaking is vernacular or English, some of the songs are in Latin.