Revised Standard 1 vs 2 vs Douay Rheims... etc

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Guys, once of my concerns now is with the following passage. I think it is beautiful and inspiring. Why would it be left out of modern translations when it is still very much part of the Vulgate…as it is on the Vatican website.

I think this passage must have been meditated upon, preached about, and been in the liturgy, especially in relation to Church Wisdom and Mariology. Now it is disregarded as something that was never supposed to be in the scriptures in the first place by the translators of the RSV-CE and the NAB? I hear that the 24th chapter of Sirach is included in its entirety in the Jerusalem Bible, however.

What are your thoughts onthis passage?

I am a bit worried about this. This sounds like a very powerful passage to just simply disregard:

24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. 25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.

26 Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. 27 For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. 28 My memory is unto everlasting generations. 29 They that eat me, shall yet hunger: and they that drink me, shall yet thirst. 30 He that hearkeneth to me, shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin.

31 They that explain me shall have life everlasting. 32 All these things are the book of life, and the covenant of the most High, and the knowledge of truth.
It’s a beautiful passage. However, there are many powerful passages that were later determined to have found their way into the texts through glosses or other means, such as the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7), which is just about the most convenient and direct proof of the Trinity. Unfortunately, the Johannine Comma is not attested to by the best manuscripts, and is now accepted as not part of the original text. The Vulgate in its best form omits it, but the DR has it. The embolism, “for thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever” after the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew is another example. It’s great, it’s powerful, and it’s true, but it doesn’t belong there.

This Sirach passage is most likely also a gloss. It may be powerful and beautiful, but if the Holy Spirit did not inspire the original author to write that text, then it shouldn’t be there, unless the Church says otherwise. But look at verse 16 of the NAB. It matches up to a large degree.

An exception is John 7:53-8:11, the story of the adulterous woman. Scholars now generally accept that this text wasn’t originally part of the Gospel of St. John and is written in the synoptic, rather than Johannine tradition, but the Church ruled that it is inspired and canonical, and should remain in its traditional place. That’s why the RSV-CE returns the pericope to its place in John.
 
DD2007,
You seem to be waging the endless debates that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread with yourself. I’m not sure if anyone can help you beyond what has already been posted here. It appears to me that you will be most comfortable using the Douay Rheims translation, which was decreed to be free from error regarding faith and morals. If nothing else, use it as your reference from which to assess other translations.

Your concerns about the Sirach passage seem to be based a little bit on a ‘straw man’ argument. Most of the passage you quoted appears in the RSV-CE and/or NAB and the accompanying footnoted commentary, albeit in different verse numbers. The passage is actually about the Wisdom of God, but the NAB mentions, in commentary, that it is often liturgically applied to the Blessed Virgin. Regardless, the Church’s overall teaching on Marian doctrines does not hinge on the integrity or accuracy of this particular passage.

My advice would be to read a combination of the aforementioned translations that you’re comfortable with, and enjoy and apply them! Try not to become too distracted with these debates you are waging with yourself.

rocketrob
 
DD2007,
You seem to be waging the endless debates that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread with yourself. I’m not sure if anyone can help you beyond what has already been posted here. It appears to me that you will be most comfortable using the Douay Rheims translation, which was decreed to be free from error regarding faith and morals. If nothing else, use it as your reference from which to assess other translations.

Your concerns about the Sirach passage seem to be based a little bit on a ‘straw man’ argument. Most of the passage you quoted appears in the RSV-CE and/or NAB and the accompanying footnoted commentary, albeit in different verse numbers. The passage is actually about the Wisdom of God, but the NAB mentions, in commentary, that it is often liturgically applied to the Blessed Virgin. Regardless, the Church’s overall teaching on Marian doctrines does not hinge on the integrity or accuracy of this particular passage.

My advice would be to read a combination of the aforementioned translations that you’re comfortable with, and enjoy and apply them! Try not to become too distracted with these debates you are waging with yourself.

rocketrob
Thanks. I have a history of torturing myself with accuracy and detail.

I will sit down to read the Bible for either spiritual enlightenment, or historical purpose or something and then I will see something that catches my attention then, in the back of my mind I feel I have to check where it goes so I follow the footnotes, then I check other versions for accuracy, then I get into are the Bibles I’m reading actually accurate…has the Church made an error in defining the meaning of scripture?..all these things come to mind and then I get on the internet do research, ask people questions…by the time I’m done…i haven’t studied anything other than that required to convince myself that the Bible is accurate.

I have had this problem a lot. 🤷

Sorry. I’ll jsut accept that these versions are fine and read all three of them together as I inevitably won’t be able to finish the task I set out to do (like finish a chapter) anyway.

Thanks for all the help 🙂
 
DD2007,
You seem to be waging the endless debates that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread with yourself. I’m not sure if anyone can help you beyond what has already been posted here. It appears to me that you will be most comfortable using the Douay Rheims translation, which was decreed to be free from error regarding faith and morals. If nothing else, use it as your reference from which to assess other translations.

Your concerns about the Sirach passage seem to be based a little bit on a ‘straw man’ argument. Most of the passage you quoted appears in the RSV-CE and/or NAB and the accompanying footnoted commentary, albeit in different verse numbers. The passage is actually about the Wisdom of God, but the NAB mentions, in commentary, that it is often liturgically applied to the Blessed Virgin. Regardless, the Church’s overall teaching on Marian doctrines does not hinge on the integrity or accuracy of this particular passage.

My advice would be to read a combination of the aforementioned translations that you’re comfortable with, and enjoy and apply them! Try not to become too distracted with these debates you are waging with yourself.

rocketrob
That is what I have been trying to say all along. Thanks RocketRob
 
The Douay-Rheims is an accurate Bible. The most accurate. That doesn’t mean that the RSV-CE isn’t accurate. The Douay-Rheims is translated from the Latin Vulgate (old Latin Vulgate versions). The RSV-CE 1 and 2 come from the Protestant RSV. The differences between the first and second edition are some word changes as Luke 1:28 beginning was changed to Hail, full of grace in the second edition. However, I don’t see that modern Catholic Versions such as the JB, NJB, GNT, RSV-CE and NAB are more accurate than those of Douay-Rheims, Confraternity, and Ronald Knox Translation. Moreover, I don’t see the Nova Vulgate being more accurate than the Clementine or Sixtus Editions or any other previous editions of the Latin Vulgate. I know I will receive a lot of criticism about that, but I don’t care. The Douay is extremely accurate. As for the King James Version. It is a very good Bible, but it is Protestant and no longer include the books of Judith, Tobit, I Machabees, II Machabees, Baruch, Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus. As for the accuracy of the modern translation, again Luke 1:28 is an example. At the end of Luke 1:28 the NAB, RSV-CE, JB exclude blessed are thou among women. Although the RSV-CE is only modern version to read Hail, full of grace instead of Hail highly favored one, still eliminates the ending. The Nova Vulgata is the same way.This doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t read them. I just do not see that the modern translations being more accurate than the Douay-Rheims.
// if you mean the challoner version, i kind of disagree of it being accurate…why? 99% of it resembles the authorized version…
 
// if you mean the challoner version, i kind of disagree of it being accurate…why? 99% of it resembles the authorized version…
KJV was released 2 years after The Douay-Rheims. The KJV borrowed from the Rheims NT. Nothing in the KJV is original. In fact it has some of the Geneva, Bishops, Tyndale NT, Great Bible and Wycliffe Bible it as well. The KJV and the Douay-Rheims use different numbering system on the Psalms, but both end up with 150 Psalms. Plus The Douay-Rheims is a word for word translation of the Latin Vulgate (Older Vulgates Sixtus and Clementine editions). KJV is a collection of different Bible rolled into one
 
KJV was released 2 years after The Douay-Rheims. The KJV borrowed from the Rheims NT. Nothing in the KJV is original. In fact it has some of the Geneva, Bishops, Tyndale NT, Great Bible and Wycliffe Bible it as well. The KJV and the Douay-Rheims use different numbering system on the Psalms, but both end up with 150 Psalms. Plus The Douay-Rheims is a word for word translation of the Latin Vulgate (Older Vulgates Sixtus and Clementine editions). KJV is a collection of different Bible rolled into one
Neither the D-R nor the KJV that are in bookstores today are the original version of either Bible. The D-R in the stores today is the Challoner revision, circa 1752. The KJV in the stores today is the Blayney revision, circa 1769.
 
Neither the D-R nor the KJV that are in bookstores today are the original version of either Bible. The D-R in the stores today is the Challoner revision, circa 1752. The KJV in the stores today is the Blayney revision, circa 1769.
true, but the KJV eliminated the 7 deutrocanonical books that were originally in the 1769 edition. There may be a few carriers that have the original KJV and D-R. In all honesty the KJV is a very good Bible. All Bibles during the 1500s through the early 1800s are excellent Bibles. I personally don’t think these modern Bibles come close to these older version. To me they just seem lackluster. I guess that is just me.
 
true, but the KJV eliminated the 7 deutrocanonical books that were originally in the 1769 edition. There may be a few carriers that have the original KJV and D-R. In all honesty the KJV is a very good Bible. All Bibles during the 1500s through the early 1800s are excellent Bibles. I personally don’t think these modern Bibles come close to these older version. To me they just seem lackluster. I guess that is just me.
Yes, it is possible to find the original versions. I also prefer the older translations. The language sounds so much more dignified.

As for the RSV-CE, I own the first one. I never bought the RSV-2CE, since I am waiting for the RSV-3CE. I mentioned that I am waiting for the RSV-3CE on another thread a while ago.
 
Yes, it is possible to find the original versions. I also prefer the older translations. The language sounds so much more dignified.

As for the RSV-CE, I own the first one. I never bought the RSV-2CE, since I am waiting for the RSV-3CE. I mentioned that I am waiting for the RSV-3CE on another thread a while ago.
It is nice to see that someone prefers the older translations. I know its a protestant translation but I am interested in the Geneva Bible. It is produced as a facsmile if I am not mistaken. I like that better than the KJV. I have read that throught studylight.org. RSV-3CE? When they coming out with that? Not a big fan of it but just curious
 
KJV was released 2 years after The Douay-Rheims. The KJV borrowed from the Rheims NT. Nothing in the KJV is original. In fact it has some of the Geneva, Bishops, Tyndale NT, Great Bible and Wycliffe Bible it as well. The KJV and the Douay-Rheims use different numbering system on the Psalms, but both end up with 150 Psalms. Plus The Douay-Rheims is a word for word translation of the Latin Vulgate (Older Vulgates Sixtus and Clementine editions). KJV is a collection of different Bible rolled into one
// the rheims edition was released first…then the authorised version came after which borrowed from the rheims…then came out douais’ version…

// the original douai-rheims version is a word for word translation as you wrote, but the challoner (ex protestant) version which i was writing about (which is being sold today) i disagree…i did some comparisons (online and with the bible desktop) and 99% resembles the authorised version…

realdouayrheims.com/

// i do wish the original was released…i want it so badly… 😃
 
// the rheims edition was released first…then the authorised version came after which borrowed from the rheims…then came out douais’ version…

// the original douai-rheims version is a word for word translation as you wrote, but the challoner (ex protestant) version which i was writing about (which is being sold today) i disagree…i did some comparisons (online and with the bible desktop) and 99% resembles the authorised version…

realdouayrheims.com/

// i do wish the original was released…i want it so badly… 😃
do the same comparisons with the Wycliffe, Geneva, Bishops, Tyndale and Coverdale versions. They are very similar to the Douay-Rheims Challoner version as well. www.studylight.org
 
This site isn’t entirely correct either. Wycliffe Bible was released in 1384, not after the Luther Bible. The Luther Bible was considered corrupt because of the books that were taken out of the OT, which were Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, Baruch, Judith, Tobias, I Machabees and II Machabees. He also took out 4 out of the NT, but later editions he put them back in. They are James, Hebrew, Jude and Apocalypse.
 
also the the whole Douay-Rheims Bible came out before the KJV. Any revisions made by Dr. Challoner were not major but minor doesn’t diminish the text of the Vulgate.
 
Moreover, the Luther Bible wasn’t the source text that the King James used. The Bishops Bible served as a basis for the KJV as it was meant to replace it and overtake the Geneva Bible in which King James I(England)/VI(Scotland) didn’t approve of. I think you need to check your sources. Also you can get the Douay-Rheims not in one edition though. They have a 1582 Rheims NT for sale and a Douay OT for sale too. I would by those and compare those with the Challoner Version and Haydock version.
 
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