Revisiting: Going to hell for leaving the Catholic Church (dealing with guilt 6 years later)

[PRmerger]

But unless you were actually there at the time of Jesus, I’m not sure how you can truly know it as fact without at least some leap of faith and belief in writings, in interpretations, in a faith’s teaching authority and with faith that it has never strayed and that there is never need for reform or an evolving understanding of issues. I always think when Catholics go around proclaiming they know, that they would be more truthful to say they think or believe they know.

I wonder if you have the same level of uncertainty when you tell your son that Shakespeare wrote Romeo and Juliet.

When you are at a Trivia Night, do you never know an answer? Do you always present your response with, “Well, I can’t know this for certain, but the answer could, possibly, perhaps be: Che Guevarra”?

When you speak to your employees do you say, “I really don’t know anything for certain, so when I tell you that I simply cannot know that you should be paid for the week you worked last June, you have to concede this to me. I can’t pay you for that week.”

(The above are examples to make a point. So the details are not important. The bigger picture is what needs to be addressed. Thus, there is no need to say, “I’ve never been to a Trivia Night and given an answer” or “I am not a boss but rather an employee”, or “I am a gay woman and have had a hysterectomy so I don’t have a son and will never have a son”…etc etc etc).

 

[Redman1986]

Redman,
Do you want to find out the truth, or justify remaining where you are without guilt?

Well, I’m certainly not here only to justify my own decisions. Yes, I do believe I’m searching for truth. Many on these forums are strong in their belief that following the RCC is the best way to accomplish this. I’m not so sure.

Why did I start this thread on a catholic forum rather than some other non affiliated religious forum? My main goal is to figure out how I can maintain/strengthen the relationship with God for myself and my family, and I feel most at home talking to Catholics (though I did originally start this thread in the non catholic religions forum, with hopes of also getting a diverse set of opinions). That said, statements like “get back to the sacraments” will be difficult for me to act on so easily. I’ve been away for quite a few years, and I’m not really ready to go back yet.

 

[Redman1986]

I can’t think of a single current “social issue” that isn’t an assault on the family, and especially on fatherhood, so now that you are a father perhaps at some level you are rethinking your younger opinions.

As mentioned earlier, I think if I took this bait, this thread would spiral. I only mentioned the reason for leaving because I know everyone here would want to know. My views on many social issues haven’t changed in many years, and still continue to be the reason I stay away. I’ll take this opportunity to browse the threads on these topics and continue to learn though.

 

[PRmerger]

As mentioned earlier, I think if I took this bait, this thread would spiral. I only mentioned the reason for leaving because I know everyone here would want to know. My views on many social issues haven’t changed in many years, and still continue to be the reason I stay away. I’ll take this opportunity to browse the threads on these topics and continue to learn though.

Now, remember, it’s not “your views” on social issues that you should follow but rather Christ’s views, right?

 

[Redman1986]

Why don’t we start with whether you can provide a knowledgeable apologia of the Catholic teaching on divorce and re-marriage? What does she teach on this, and why?

I’ll give you an attempt, which will probably suck, if you first answer me:

Why do I need to be able to give an explanation of the Catholic church’s teaching on divorce and re-marriage in order to be a good spiritual leader for my family?

I should also mention that divorce is not an option I consider as valid in my life. This is probably because of my upbringing, but also because with my wife I helped bring about new life, and with divorce I would be abandoning that life.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ll give you an attempt, which will probably suck, if you first answer me:

Ok.

But why will it suck?

Were you not knowledgeable about the faith which you left?

Why do I need to be able to give an explanation of the Catholic church’s teaching on divorce and re-marriage in order to be a good spiritual leader for my family?

You don’t. I don’t think anyone was proposing that you need to give an explanation of the CC’s teaching on divorce and remarriage in order to be a good spiritual leader for your family.

So, now, what is the Catholic apologia for her teaching?

 

[Redman1986]

Ok.

But why will it suck?

Were you not knowledgeable about the faith which you left?

You don’t. I don’t think anyone was proposing that you need to give an explanation of the CC’s teaching on divorce and remarriage in order to be a good spiritual leader for your family.

So, now, what is the Catholic apologia for her teaching?

Ah, well my confusion about your intent was likely just due to the fact that my op was vague. So you’re quizzing me to see if I had full knowledge of the faith so we can determine if I’m going to hell? That’s fair.

Why will it suck? Because it’s been a while. I’ll indulge you though.

Divorce is not an option for Catholics, as it breaks the vow of matrimony. The vow is only broken by death (or in other extreme cases which warrant an annulment). Those who get remarried after divorce are considered still married to their first spouse and living in adultery.

Why does the church teach this? Matrimony is not a sacrament we partake in to be happy no matter what. It’s the willful acceptance of sacrifice and self-giving. Marriage exists so that Catholics may bond with each other through self-sacrifice and procreate.

What’s my grade?

 

[PRmerger]

Ah, well my confusion about your intent was likely just due to the fact that my op was vague. So you’re quizzing me to see if I had full knowledge of the faith so we can determine if I’m going to hell? That’s fair.

Why will it suck? Because it’s been a while. I’ll indulge you though.

Divorce is not an option for Catholics,

Incorrect.

I can address your post further, but I think the point should be ceded: you left a faith that you do not know.

 

[Redman1986]

Now, remember, it’s not “your views” on social issues that you should follow but rather Christ’s views, right?

Oh dear, I’m not sure how to answer this. So, “my views” are as they are because of many factors, including my faith in God, and my desire to love my neighbor as myself. “Christ’s views” can be different for everyone. For simplification, the Catholic church has written down some views for you to follow, which makes it so much easier of course. I grew up with these views, but then God put people in my life that affected my heart. I believe God speaks through my heart and through love. So, as mentioned before, I’m at odds here.

 

[PRmerger]

Ah, well my confusion about your intent was likely just due to the fact that my op was vague. So you’re quizzing me to see if I had full knowledge of the faith so we can determine if I’m going to hell? That’s fair.

Regarding determining if you’re “going to hell”: you should disabuse yourself of the idea that anyone could determine if you’re going to hell.

In fact, if any Catholic ever tells you: “I have determined that you are going to hell” you can tell him, “Really? Because I’m pretty sure that the Catholic Church says that you can’t do this.”

That would bring a smile to my face to think of a person who’s left the CC telling a person who’s still part of the CC what the CC actually teaches.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh dear, I’m not sure how to answer this. So, “my views” are as they are because of many factors, including my faith in God, and my desire to love my neighbor as myself.

Fair enough.

But would we be agreed that some of “your views” aren’t going to be the same as “Christ’s views”, yes?

That is: it would be logically implausible for God to happen to agree with every single one of your views on “social issues”, such as: birth control, gay marriage, divorce and re-marriage, homosexuality, etc.

Are we agreed that if you’re really going to be following Christ you would have had to have changed some of your own personal views to conform to Christ’s?

Yes?

 

[Redman1986]

Incorrect.

I can address your post further, but I think the point should be ceded: you left a faith that you do not know.

Darnit! Wait…hooray! I’m not going to hell! Wait, how much do you need to know to go to hell? Can anyone really have full knowledge? Should there be a standardized test?

 

[PRmerger]

Darnit! Wait…hooray! I’m not going to hell!

And you know this, how?

Wait, how much do you need to know to go to hell? Can anyone really have full knowledge? Should there be a standardized test?

You should simply acknowledge that you have very, very little knowledge of what the Catholic faith taught.

And perhaps it’s a good idea to learn a bit more about what you left.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh dear, I’m not sure how to answer this. So, “my views” are as they are because of many factors, including my faith in God, and my desire to love my neighbor as myself. “Christ’s views” can be different for everyone. For simplification, the Catholic church has written down some views for you to follow, which makes it so much easier of course. I grew up with these views, but then God put people in my life that affected my heart. I believe God speaks through my heart and through love. So, as mentioned before, I’m at odds here.

 

[PRmerger]

Divorce is not an option for Catholics

Incorrect

From our Catechism, which you can find online here: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

(The Catechism is the sure norm for what the CC teaches.)

2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2383.htm

 

[Redman1986]

And you know this, how?

You should simply acknowledge that you have very, very little knowledge of what the Catholic faith taught.

And perhaps it’s a good idea to learn a bit more about what you left.

Haha, yes you’re right. I don’t know I’m not going to hell. I was merely saying that I’m not going to hell because I left with full knowledge.

I think I know a lot less than what I knew 10 years ago, certainly. And I’m certainly fine admitting that (If I weren’t I could have just googled the answer ) I was certainly taught the right answer in school though. Having now googled it, my main failure was saying divorce breaks the vow. Would have been better to say “divorce cannot dissolve what God has joined.” It even sounds better.

I agree it’s a good idea to learn more. We’ll see what happens. The main issue though, is that I would be learning more about a religion I left for only a small percentage of its actual teachings. As I understand it, it’s all or nothing with the Catholic church.

 

[PRmerger]

Haha, yes you’re right. I don’t know I’m not going to hell. I was merely saying that I’m not going to hell because I left with full knowledge.

I think I know a lot less than what I knew 10 years ago, certainly. And I’m certainly fine admitting that (If I weren’t I could have just googled the answer )

Yes, and I thank you for your integrity in not simply googling the answer.

I was certainly taught the right answer in school though.

Good for you for saying this.

Most often I hear, regarding some bogus, ridiculous teaching that’s ostensibly Catholic: “Well, that’s what I was taught by the nuns. And I was an altar boy for 3 years! And I know the Mass in Latin to boot!”…as if that gives them some credibility in asserting some gaga, lala nonsense that they say is Catholic teaching.

 

[Thorolfr]

At some point along the way you need to have had practicing Catholic spiritual ancestors to know that, though.

I don’t think the Reformers even claim to have gotten their teachings from new revelation - rather, they took the Roman Catholic faith and simply shaved off the parts they didn’t like.

And if you’d had practicing Muslim ancestors, you’d probably say that you know that Jesus didn’t die for your sins and that he was only a prophet and not the Son of God. Just because someone believes certain things, often because that’s what their family and ancestors believed, doesn’t mean that those beliefs are true.

 

[PRmerger]

Having now googled it, my main failure was saying divorce breaks the vow. Would have been better to say “divorce cannot dissolve what God has joined.” It even sounds better.

Not exactly.

You should have said: divorce is permitted if there is no other recourse to ensure certain rights.

And you should have said: it’s divorce and re-marriage that is not permitted.

Now, do you know why the CC says that divorce and re-marriage isn’t permitted?

I agree it’s a good idea to learn more.

Absolutely.

As I understand it, it’s all or nothing with the Catholic church.

Well, let’s see how that would work: you would say, “The CC got it right about A, B and C, but got it wrong about D, E, and F”.

And what would you use as the canon of measurement for where the CC is right and where the CC is wrong–what your own personal views are?

If so, wouldn’t that simply be worshipping yourself and your own personal ideals?

 

[jmcrae]

And if you’d had practicing Muslim ancestors, you’d probably say that you know that Jesus didn’t die for your sins and that he was only a prophet and not the Son of God. Just because someone believes certain things, often because that’s what their family and ancestors believed, doesn’t mean that those beliefs are true.

As a Catholic, my spiritual ancestors are Jesus and the Apostles.

When I was Protestant, my spiritual ancestors were ex-Catholics.

In order to have spiritual ancestors who are Muslim, I would have to be Muslim.