Reviving the Female Deaconate

[baltobetsy]

[The bold emphasis is mine.]

Aren’t we all describing the Sacrament of Confirmation? Both genders of laity are consecrated by the Bishop using the sacred oils to do our special ministry in the Church. Perhaps what we really need is a revitalization of the understanding of graces given to all of us at confirmation. Also a legitimate understanding of the role of the laity in the world (not just in the sacristy) is needed (a la Christifidelis laici).

Maxk, yes, YES, YES!!! The lay vocation has just as great a dignity as the priestly vocation in the eyes of God. It is truly a shame that the issue has been made one of power. Are we not all here to serve?? “Christ did not deem equality with God something to be grasped.” (sorry I don’t have chapter and verse) Shouldn’t we follow suit and not grasp for power?

Betsy

 

[DVIN_CKS]

Who said this had anything to do with “power”? This is where the confusion lies. I agree that we are all called to serve the Church, but the notion of women wanting to gain power over the church is ludicrous!! Women want a say…their voices to be heard at a national and world level. Would having a vote in selecting the next Pope be such a terrible thing? Do we not have anything to offer at this level of authority?

 

[Maggie]

DVIN CKS:

Who said this had anything to do with “power”? This is where the confusion lies. I agree that we are all called to serve the Church, but the notion of women wanting to gain power over the church is ludicrous!! Women want a say…their voices to be heard at a national and world level. Would having a vote in selecting the next Pope be such a terrible thing? Do we not have anything to offer at this level of authority?

I think ultimately this is where you and I at least disagree… The confusion lies here but not for the same reasons… I believe that God does the choosing, so for me to feel like I would have any say or power or voice even if I were male is ludicrous. What does it matter which gender He speaks to to make His voice heard? Ultimately, I believe that those to whom He speaks do His will, that those who do the choosing are not voicing their opinions, advocating their agendas or following their wills, but God’s alone. So it doesn’t matter to me which gender heads the church because I truly believe that the Holy Spirit actually guides the church, as promised by Christ. “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven…” If we made “our” voices heard, what kind of changes would we try to force on God?

 

[system]

twf:

I think this would be a great idea. The term was used by the ancient Church, so I think it would be acceptable today. If the pope (or a future pope) ever re-instituted this office, he should make it very clear, though, that a deaconess is not a ‘female deacon’. These women could be consecrated to serve within the Church, perhaps in a similar fashion to religious sisters who serve in parishes, but as married women. They certainly would not be ordained, but simply consecrated by the bishop,** probably using Holy Chrism**, for a special ministry.

Chrism is used in three Sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders (priest’s hands are consecrated) not deacons.

DigitalDeacon

 

[system]

Maggie:

I think ultimately this is where you and I at least disagree… The confusion lies here but not for the same reasons… I believe that God does the choosing, so for me to feel like I would have any say or power or voice even if I were male is ludicrous. What does it matter which gender He speaks to to make His voice heard? Ultimately, I believe that those to whom He speaks do His will, that those who do the choosing are not voicing their opinions, advocating their agendas or following their wills, but God’s alone. So it doesn’t matter to me which gender heads the church because I truly believe that the Holy Spirit actually guides the church, as promised by Christ. “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven…” If we made “our” voices heard, what kind of changes would we try to force on God?

Maggie, you know your stuff! The problem is they want control not the Holy Spirit. If we do what they are suggesting we will be no better than the Protestants who have watered down the faith.

DigitalDeacon

 

[DVIN_CKS]

I guess there is no escaping such terms as “power” or “control” from this thread. Sad, indeed.

Am I the only one who doesn’t see this as a power struggle between the sexes? Statements suggesting that women want control or want to push their own agendas in regards to Church policy is laughable!! Women could no more push their own agendas than men could push theirs. If you believe that the Holy Spirit truley guides the church…then you should have complete faith (not to mention TRUST) that the Church and her teachings could NEVER be “watered down”.

 

[baltobetsy]

DVIN CKS:

Women want a say…their voices to be heard at a national and world level. Would having a vote in selecting the next Pope be such a terrible thing? Do we not have anything to offer at this level of authority?

Your posts are rather contradictory - if this is not a desire for power, what is it?

Betsy

 

[DVIN_CKS]

“Having a voice” isn’t to be equated with “changing Church teachings”, as I feel so many people seem to think here.

Just because we have women in Congress doesn’t mean that they get to have the country run their own way or change the laws to suit their gender. They work within the guidelines of the judicial system as it was set up in the constitution. Is our country any worse off because women serve as politicians in this country? Some may say it is. Some may say they’d like to see only men representing the voices of Americans in this country. I’m not one of those people.

I just don’t see how women’s opinions, thoughts, insights and experiences would be a detriment to our Church and her growth (I’m talking on a national/world level here…not a parish level). I’m not trying to lessen the role of men in the Church, I’m just trying to find some common ground where women’s voices can be heard (again, on a national/world level). The article I came across about reviving the role of deaconate for women seemed like a good place to start…or to at least consider.

I’m not trying to suggest a female Pope or female ordination into the priesthood (since that can’t happen anyway). I’m just trying to open my mind to other possibilities…think outside the box, sort of speak. If you disagree with me…that is fine, I respect your insights and your freedom to have an opinion other than mine.

 

[maxk]

"I just don’t see how women’s opinions, thoughts, insights and experiences would be a detriment to our Church and her growth (I’m talking on a national/world level here…not a parish level).

I agree with your basic idea that women would be a great asset to the Church, but you seem to forget that the majority of recognized Saints are women. Indeed, the greatest saint is a woman, Mary. Women do have a huge impact on the Church, at a parish, national, international, and supernatural level. What more could there be?

 

[rjmporter]

DVIN CKS:
I just don’t see how women’s opinions, thoughts, insights and experiences would be a detriment to our Church and her growth

I just don’t see how making a woman a cardinal or making her a deaconess or making or proscribing some other ecclesiastical title to her gives her more of an opportunity to voice her thoughts, opinions, insights, experiences on a national or global level. Catherine of Sienna was one of the most influential women of her day. She told the Pope himself when it was time to Pack up and get back to Rome, and he did not dare contradict her. Today, it can be argued, one of the most influential persons in the church on a populist scale is a little old nun in Alabama. She seems to have no trouble sharing her opinions, thoughts, insights and experiences despite the fact that she has no ecclesial title. So I am back to my Question DVIN , why is an ecclesial title necessary to accomplish the goal you describe?

As Ever,

RP

 

[DVIN_CKS]

rjmporter:

So I am back to my Question DVIN , why is an ecclesial title necessary to accomplish the goal you describe?

For the simple fact that if women shared in some sort of ecclesial title, then they would be able to sit on vatican councils that make decisions regarding the governance of our Church. Unless I’m mistaken…(and I could be), I’m not aware of women being allowed to partake on any official Vatican council that the Pope assigns. Even in determining who the next saint will be is made up of a council which is entirely male, right?

 

[maxk]

Someone may have to help me out, but didn’t the Pope just appoint a woman to head one of the Vatican committees or dicasteries (not sure of the term). I believe it was the Pontifical council for the sciences.

Anyone know the details of this?

 

[rabarts]

I don’t understand the desire to have “deaconesses”. This would lead to confusion. It is indeed a feminized form of a term used to refer to an ordained clergyman.

We already have women and have had women serving the church and being quite influential for millenia. They are called nuns. St. Catherine of Sienna was influential in bringing the papacy back to Rome from Avingnon. Saint Theresa of Calcutta of course comes to mind.

This list could get big very quick. Women already have had and have excellent avenues to serve God. This deaconess thing is a feminist, “critical theory” trojan horse.

 

[rjmporter]

DVIN CKS:

For the simple fact that if women shared in some sort of ecclesial title, then they would be able to sit on vatican councils that make decisions regarding the governance of our Church. Unless I’m mistaken…(and I could be), I’m not aware of women being allowed to partake on any official Vatican council that the Pope assigns. Even in determining who the next saint will be is made up of a council which is entirely male, right?

This is not true, an ecclisial title is not required to be a member of the curia of any diocese including the diocese of Rome. As a matter of fact, I believe the current pope just named a woman to a currial or near-currial position. I will check on this and get back to you

From georgiabulletin.org/world/2004/03/09/PEOPLE-2/

Pope names Glendon to be first woman to head Vatican academy

From cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=24584
[QUTOE]
Cardinal Daneels foresees women heading Roman Curia

Brussels, Sep. 08, 2003 (CWNews.com) - Belgian Cardinal Godfried Daneels has indicated his belief that women should be included among the leaders of the Church, including positions the Roman Curia.

“Two of my deputies are women,” observed Cardinal Daneels. “So I cannot see why a woman could not lead a Vatican congregation.”

Now weather now is the time to implement such a change is another question. But is it possible, yes.

 

[Charlemagne]

Your last thought hits the nail right on the head. No traditional, orthodox Catholic women would become deaconesses. Only those women with an agenda to push would. They’d be more fixated on serving the interests of women than on serving God and the Church.
DVIN CKS:

Right…the deaconesses role often pertained specifically to other women in the church. Their role would, of course, be much different in today’s time.

I disagree…I think it would have the opposite effect. It would give women the voice that they have been looking for in regards to contributing to real decision making at a “higher” level. They could contribute to the ecclesiastical governance in a way that they can’t now. It would be a compromise since ordination to the priesthood is not an option for women.

I understand your concern though. For those women and men who have a radical feminine agenda, it might be just what they need to “fuel their fire”.

 

[DVIN_CKS]

rjmporter: Thanks for the links. I’m glad to see (and stand corrected) that the Church IS moving in the right direction by having women serve on councils and being recognized for the talents they can contribute.

 

[george_eastlake]

dvin, What are the words exactly to the voice you want. Where are you not satisfied? As laity we need to evangelize our faith, to Catholics especially, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the teaching authority (magesterium). I have found in my family that the one thing my four sisters can’t get past is the “whole magesterium thing”. Women as deaconesses never did anything other than help out. Not to be confused with any kind of ordained ministry. Read the popes encyclicals on the origins of man and woman, sexuality etc on EWTN website under document libraries. Although this may seem removed from this discussion, our gender specific roles as man and woman have much to do with sacred tradition as we have recieved it, and once understood this theology sheds a whole new meaning on what our roles are, why and how God wanted these things specifically. That you are a woman and I am a man are not arbitrary ideas. I also recommend reading Alice von Hildebrand. True femininity is hardly the brand of feminism that most hold to today and men should also take notice of their lost Catholic responsibilities. Todays Catholics (not all of course) are suffering from whimpism!

We need orthodoxy! (A great book by the way)
Peace and love George