Rhetorical question: Marriage

[CompSciGuy]

So I was wondering about something. I apparently don’t know a great deal about the sacrament of marriage, but from what I understand a marriage has to be performed in Church in a sacramental setting in order for it to be considered valid by the Catholic Church. So I was wondering, suppose that there is a man and a woman cut off from civilization, on a desert island if you will, who have no means of obtaining a proper sacramental marriage, but would if they could. Do you think that, if they had little hope of ever being rescued from their predicament, they decided to go ahead and have relations, would they be guilty of fornication?

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

So I was wondering about something. I apparently don’t know a great deal about the sacrament of marriage, but from what I understand a marriage has to be performed in Church in a sacramental setting in order for it to be considered valid by the Catholic Church. So I was wondering, suppose that there is a man and a woman cut off from civilization, on a desert island if you will, who have no means of obtaining a proper sacramental marriage, but would if they could. Do you think that, if they had little hope of ever being rescued from their predicament, they decided to go ahead and have relations, would they be guilty of fornication?

I don’t know the specific rules, but it is my understanding that in such a circumstance, if you both pledge to God to be man and wife, then it is a valid marriage.

 

[SteveGC]

So I was wondering about something. I apparently don’t know a great deal about the sacrament of marriage, but from what I understand a marriage has to be performed in Church in a sacramental setting in order for it to be considered valid by the Catholic Church. So I was wondering, suppose that there is a man and a woman cut off from civilization, on a desert island if you will, who have no means of obtaining a proper sacramental marriage, but would if they could. Do you think that, if they had little hope of ever being rescued from their predicament, they decided to go ahead and have relations, would they be guilty of fornication?

In one sense, your hypothetical is somewhat irrational. IF two people were in fact cut off from civilization, God would be working out many things with them outside of His sacraments, and would judge them on the knowledge they had, and lacked through no fault of their own. Hence, it is a very difficult situation to explore. If they knew of the sacrament of marriage before they were “deserted”, again it is quite an irrational scenario…but I’ll play along and say “no”. They cannot get validly married in that scenario, for although they technically administer the sacrament to one another, a priest and witnesses must be present. Thus, yes, the sin of fornication would indeed be present if they engaged in sexual relations. They, of course, might choose to take their chances and rely on God understanding their predicament and intentions, but His work outside of the sacraments is a mystery, while His work within the sacraments is dogma. Best to trust in dogma in this case.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Catholic canon law provides for an extraordinary form of marriage for those without access to a pastor or other person authorized to witness a Catholic marriage:

Can. 1116 §1. If a person competent to assist according to the norm of law cannot be present or approached without grave inconvenience, those who intend to enter into a true marriage can contract it validly and licitly before witnesses only:

1/ in danger of death;

2/ outside the danger of death provided that it is prudently foreseen that the situation will continue for a month.

§2. In either case, if some other priest or deacon who can be present is available, he must be called and be present at the celebration of the marriage together with the witnesses, without prejudice to the validity of the marriage before witnesses only.

 

[SteveGC]

Catholic canon law provides for an extraordinary form of marriage for those without access to a pastor or other person authorized to witness a Catholic marriage:

Can. 1116 §1. If a person competent to assist according to the norm of law cannot be present or approached without grave inconvenience, those who intend to enter into a true marriage can contract it validly and licitly before witnesses only:

1/ in danger of death;

2/ outside the danger of death provided that it is prudently foreseen that the situation will continue for a month.

§2. In either case, if some other priest or deacon who can be present is available, he must be called and be present at the celebration of the marriage together with the witnesses, without prejudice to the validity of the marriage before witnesses only.

Based on what I bolded above, would this make my earlier post accurate? The scenario offered is that there are no witnesses, hence my opinion that there can be no valid marriage.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Based on what I bolded above, would this make my earlier post accurate? The scenario offered is that there are no witnesses, hence my opinion that there can be no valid marriage.

Correct; there needs to be at least one witness.

 

[Stylites]

They, of course, might choose to take their chances and rely on God understanding their predicament and intentions, but His work outside of the sacraments is a mystery, while His work within the sacraments is dogma. Best to trust in dogma in this case.

Just my opinion, of course.

Sorry to detract from the thread, but unless I am misreading what you wrote or intended to convey, it seems odd to say that an omniscient God might not understand something, including a person’s intentions.

Just as man was not made for the Sabbath, neither was man made for the Sacraments.

 

[Stylites]

Marriage is a social institution. In the fantasy scenario crafted, there is no society, no Church, no witness, and no hope of getting back to civilization, apparently. Were the new Adam and the new Eve to confer the Sacrament of Matrimony upon each other, then God would have to be their witness.

 

[SteveGC]

Sorry to detract from the thread, but unless I am misreading what you wrote or intended to convey, it seems odd to say that an omniscient God might not understand something, including a person’s intentions.

Just as man was not made for the Sabbath, neither was man made for the Sacraments.

You did misread, but it could have been my wording. Indeed, God sees and knows all. My intent was to convey that humans do not know if/when God works outside of the sacraments - it is a mystery, albeit we have confidence in His omniscience and trust in His justice. We do, however, know if/when He works sacramentally. Hence, my statement that it is better to follow dogma.

If His Church decrees that there must be a witness, then I would not assume I could be validly married without one. Nowhere do I have a teaching that presumes He Himself would serve as that witness in a post-Eden world. Thus, it seems to lack prudence to make that presumption.

Peace.