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Gilbert Keith:
IMO, the laity will reform the Church.
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Sarah_Jane
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The saints will reform the Church!
"Through all the ups and downs of history, they were the true reformers who constantly rescued it from plunging into the valley of darkness; it was they who constantly shed upon it the light that was needed to make sense - even in the midst of suffering - of God’s words spoken at the end of the work of creation: “It is very good”. " (Benedict XVI, Youth Vigil, Cologne-Marienfeld, 20 August 2005)
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Sarah Jane:
Many of whom will come from the laity.
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RyanL
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One more quick note on formal heresy:
Which is supported by these guys:
Prof. McBrien:
Catechism of the Catholic Church? $12
Internet search on E.E.N.S.? About 45 seconds.
Formal heresy? Worthless.
God Bless,
RyanL
Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
Which is supported by these guys:
Which appears directly contrary to this:
Prof. McBrien:
" (p. 76).
Catechism of the Catholic Church? $12
Internet search on E.E.N.S.? About 45 seconds.
Formal heresy? Worthless.
God Bless,
RyanL
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Eliza10
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A bird is cheaper. When the Diosean newspaper comes I turn to Fr. OBrien’s colum and line the bird cage with it.
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Eliza10
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Yiiiiikes! This makes me nervous!!!
Our Bishop wrote a column this week, very happy about his recent visit with the new Pope. Which is normal. But then he concluded he had had audiences with five Popes and this one with Pope Benedict XV! was his favorite!
This last glowing statement about our new Pope was the only thing I have read in all of his many, many, long columns that has ever peaked my slightest interest.
It caused a mixed reaction in me. “Good! How nice!” And, “Uh-oh. Why would he say that?”
I dont’ know what to think about this good repeort from the O’Brien and our bland Bishop!
Maybe the old boys club are going to be like the media is about new conservative U.S. Presidents. They rave about them in the beginnning before the new President has a chance to do anything big they don’t like. Then when they start acting, they complain loudly and rightously. And they portray themselves as possessing some balance, as, they said nice things, once.
…Yeah. …Maybe thats it.
Phew!
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Gilbert_Keith
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Well now, wouldn’t it be interesting to know how John Paul was first greeted by Professor McBrien.
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Rand_Al_Thor
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Peace be with you!
He does not recognize the authority of the magesterium (the infallibility of the pope), he does not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary (and even says he doubts the virgin conception and birth), he does not believe that the Sacraments were instituted by Christ, he says that the Catholic Church is not the Church founded by Christ. He is for women’s ordination and said that infallible document must be overturned. He doesn’t agree with the Church’s stance on abortion.
I agree completely with his definition of heresy. The formal definition is one who makes a post-baptismal formal denial of a dogma of the Catholic faith. He sure as heck seems to fall under that category. Is printing heresy in a nationaly-sold book and teaching it to thousands of students not “formal” enough?
In Christ,
Rand
And he is NOT a priest in good standing, to whoever said that.
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Catholic29
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NO, please reread my post.
But I apologize for not spelling my views more clearly that I know the SSPX is in fact in schism from the Pope as stated in John Paul II’s letter Ecclesia Dei.
Though I wouldn’t go so far as to say Mahony is a heretic, it is of my opinion he is on the liberal side in his thinking on certain matters.
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Colm_O_Higgins
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Perhaps he is merely calming the frayed nerves of his rapidly dwindling ‘reform’ generation? I see it as politicking - most Catholics ignore anything McBrien says these days (aside from pithy expressions of pity), so he churns out a favourable review of B16 and we all start talking about him again. Will history see McBrien as a heretic? I’m not sure. But he certainly should be criticized. Right now he holds an influential position at a ‘Catholic’ university and disagrees with Catholicism publicly at every opportunity. Why he’s even a consultant for the ‘Da Vinci Code’ movie, due out this Easter no less. We should remember that criticizing is not the same as judging; if we remember to pray for him as well, we do him a great service.
Hans Kung is an old friend of Benedict and a popular theologian in Europe. With re-Christianizing Western Europe at the top of our Pope’s to-do list, it is only natural to devote more time to Kung rather than a schismatic ‘bishop’.
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stanley123
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Rand Al'Thor:
Interesting that he is teaching Catholic theology at the Catholic University of Notre Dame.
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stanley123
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Colm O'Higgins:
By the way is Father Hans Kung also a heretic like the posters here say that Father Richard McBrien is?
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stanley123
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I see. So Cardinal Mahony is not a heretic.
Funny though that people are saying that we should listen to the SSPX, but not to Cardinal Mahony. A rather curious situation. Catholics are being advised to listen to what an excommunicated group is saying about a distinguished Catholic theologian who is the Crowley-O’Brien Professor of theology at Notre Dame, Father McBrien, while at the same time Catholics are being advised not to pay too much attention to Cardinal Mahony or his newspaper which carries the weekly column of Father Richard McBrien, who by the way, was president of the Catholic theological society of America. Isn’t something a bit out of wack here?
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Catholic29
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I’m not sure who is right to tell you the truth, so I just listen to Rome (Not the SSPX), and let all other collared folks between us in the pews and Benedict XVI say what they want to say. And I will take it with a grain of salt, particularily if it contradicts what Rome has authoritatively said in the past. And I must admit Father McBrien on occassion has. Someone can have degrees and accolades up the you know what, and still not be right on everything and even wrong on alot of things.
Oh, and the last I checked, the Catholic theological society of America is not the official decision making body for the Pope on faith and morals.
I wouldn’t doubt it.
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RyanL
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stanley123,
Despite my best efforts, you are still persisting in an erronious presentation of my position. I am not saying, “Listen to SSPX.” I’m saying, “Listen to the truth, which in the instant circumstance the SSPX is presenting.” I also cited CA as saying the same thing, but the stuff on the main page is simply less well documented. Will you also pit CA against the “distinguished Catholic theologian” and Cardinal Mahoney?
You have yet to take issue with anything this “distinguished Catholic theologian” has said (citations provided); that strikes me as a bit “curious”. Why not address his statements and let us know the conclusions you reach?
Regardless of the accolades Prof. McBrien may have accumulated, I’m fairly certain that there is an objective truth, and Prof. McBrien doesn’t profess it. I go to school with people who take his classes and actually work for the guy - should I value their opinion less than yours? Less than anyone’s who doesn’t listen to his lectures daily? Less than the school paper (The Irish Rover), who routinely denounces him for his anti-Magisterial positions? Do they not have more credible insight than you? What about those who have read his books and expose the contrarian positions? Should we at least read and *address *what they have to say, even if we disagree with other things they say?
Perhaps it’s time you address the substance of my posts rather than the peripherals…
So let’s take one more look at Prof. McBrien and his respect for the Magisterium:
Prof. McBrien:
Javier Lozano said:
Pope John Paul the Great said:
Affirmed by Benedict Ashley, O.P., Robert Barry, O.P., Msgr. Orville Griese, Germain Grisez, Brian Johnstone, C.Ss.R., Thomas Marzen, J.D., Bishop James McHugh, S.T.D., Gilbert Meilaender, Ph. D., Mark Siegler, M.D., and Msgr. William Smith. Is Prof. McBrien twisting the truth, or teaching heresy? As my previous posts have indicated, I think it’s both.
God Bless,
RyanL
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MrS
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good job…
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stanley123
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Hi Ryan:
I don’t want to misrepresent anyone. I guess that I more or less said what I wanted to say already and I don;t have too much to add to that. With reference to keeping someone who is near death alive, I have read conflicting views on that. I knew a lady whose brother in his nineties was being kept alive, even though there appeared to be no hope and she was very upset and depressed by this situation. His face became bloated and contorted by the medications and the prolonged agony of being in a hopeless situation in the hospital. Her thinking on it was that one should not use these extraordinary artificial menas of keeping her brother alive and miserable and just allow him to die in peace. With reference to Pope John Paul II, wasn’t it true that he was not taken to the hospital near the end, but passed peacefully at the Vatican. I was taught that we are not morally obligated to use artificial extraordinary means to keep the person alive if he is near death. Of course, it hinges on what is meant by extraordinary. But what it boils down to is that I think that there can be a difference of opinion within Catholicism on what constitutes extraordianry means of supporting life near the end, and my personal opinion is that I would not say anyone is guilty of heresy if he took a position one way or another on it.
Obviously, what you have quoted in your posts is not right, but I guess that for a trial of heresy to take place, that these things would have to be looked at in context. Still, it does seem strange that reference was made to turn to SSPX for the answers to this, and that we are asked not to place too much faith in what the theologians at Catholic colleges and universitites such as Notre Dame, with Father McBrien and the Jesuit school of Boston college, which has had professor Mary Daly teaching theology at the Catholic school???
I am not saying that you are not right here. I am just saying that it looks like things are a bit out of wack.
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RyanL
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stanley123,
I appreciate what you have said, and the manner in which you have said it. I also understand your hardship with this teaching; it is an not easy subject, and can vary depending on the circumstances. While the Church has not defined exactly what constitutes ordinary or extraordinary means WRT prolonging life, she *has *said that providing food and water is not extraordinary. It is also true that Pope John Paul the Great was allowed to pass peacefully and without extraordinary means to prolong his life, although he did have a feeding tube to aid his nutrition. His passing was perfectly in line with his teachings.
All of that is a side issue, however, to what I was trying to show. The reason I posted the Schaivo comments was to show that Prof. McBrien doesn’t consider the Pope or the Vatican councils, or any disagreeing theologian for that matter, to be “reputable”. The fact that the pope says something carries little to no weight with Prof. McBrien. That kind of open contempt for the Magisterium should not be tollerated from someone who is responsible for teaching formable minds Catholic doctrine (or any priest, for that matter).
My desire is that Prof. McBrien hurries up and converts; if it is to Catholicism, then GREAT! May it be swift and sure! If not…well…we don’t need anyone trying to pull the Church apart from the inside. That kind of sabatoge is just plain wrong. I simply want the guy to convert already.
As for the SSPX – as soon as an orthodox Catholic source documents Prof. McBrien’s heresy, rest assured that I will turn there. Unfortunately, they have yet to produce such documentation online.
You may also be interested to note that Prof. McBrien does not have a mandatum to teach Catholic theology at Our Lady’s University, as required by Ex Corde Ecclesiae. He apparently doesn’t think it’s that important. I don’t know about Mary Daly. Does that mean that he’s actually not a “Catholic” theologian, as postulated by Holy Mother Church? It remains to be seen.
God Bless,
RyanL
I appreciate what you have said, and the manner in which you have said it. I also understand your hardship with this teaching; it is an not easy subject, and can vary depending on the circumstances. While the Church has not defined exactly what constitutes ordinary or extraordinary means WRT prolonging life, she *has *said that providing food and water is not extraordinary. It is also true that Pope John Paul the Great was allowed to pass peacefully and without extraordinary means to prolong his life, although he did have a feeding tube to aid his nutrition. His passing was perfectly in line with his teachings.
All of that is a side issue, however, to what I was trying to show. The reason I posted the Schaivo comments was to show that Prof. McBrien doesn’t consider the Pope or the Vatican councils, or any disagreeing theologian for that matter, to be “reputable”. The fact that the pope says something carries little to no weight with Prof. McBrien. That kind of open contempt for the Magisterium should not be tollerated from someone who is responsible for teaching formable minds Catholic doctrine (or any priest, for that matter).
My desire is that Prof. McBrien hurries up and converts; if it is to Catholicism, then GREAT! May it be swift and sure! If not…well…we don’t need anyone trying to pull the Church apart from the inside. That kind of sabatoge is just plain wrong. I simply want the guy to convert already.
As for the SSPX – as soon as an orthodox Catholic source documents Prof. McBrien’s heresy, rest assured that I will turn there. Unfortunately, they have yet to produce such documentation online.
You may also be interested to note that Prof. McBrien does not have a mandatum to teach Catholic theology at Our Lady’s University, as required by Ex Corde Ecclesiae. He apparently doesn’t think it’s that important. I don’t know about Mary Daly. Does that mean that he’s actually not a “Catholic” theologian, as postulated by Holy Mother Church? It remains to be seen.
God Bless,
RyanL
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Rand_Al_Thor
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Peace be with you!
Yes, it is interesting. You know why? Because when Pope John Paul II required all Catholic clergy members to obtain permission from the Vatican to teach theology, McBrien refused to do so because he doesn’t accept the authority of the magesterium. Why are you defending him? You obviously know nothing about him. Are you even reading our whole posts?
And about feeding tubes–my mom is a special ed teacher and some of her students are fed through feeding tubes. Other than that (and mental disabilities) they are fine. Is that artificial life support? Should their parents be allowed to kill them? To refuse them the feeding tube would surely do that.
In Christ,
Rand
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Catholic2003
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Rand Al'Thor:
Father McBrien is both a Catholic priest in good standing and a Catholic theologian in good standing.
Even Hans Küng is a Catholic priest in good standing. Only his credentials as a Catholic theologian were revoked.
Father McBrien is both a Catholic priest in good standing and a Catholic theologian in good standing.
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