Riches of the church

[Tantum_ergo]

me and Jesus…

and if you will read all my posts before judging me, i never said we had to literally give up every single possession we own…

post 119:
giving everything to the poor is what Jesus told the man to do in order to be perfect and we must be perfect to enter Heaven… Jesus doesn’t have one standard for one person and another for someone else

I’m not judging you, I’m trying to understand what you mean. Just because I question you in trying to find out what you mean doesn’t mean I am judging you. See, from what you wrote above, it certainly appears that you are saying that Jesus gave us this standard of ‘giving everything to the poor in order to be perfect’ AND you also appear to be stating that since one has to be perfect to enter heaven, this is the way to go. This is what I understood and this is what I question.

 

[distracted]

As to what priests eat, I think it’s more than a little unreasonable to forbid them to enjoy palatable meals, on top of undergoing years of graduate education, doing a lot of work for little pay, and, of course, being celibate. ics.

being celibate is a blessing…

I’ve been celibate/chaste for many years… it didnt always seem like much of a blessing… not hardly…it was a great struggle for many years there… but the longer i am chaste, the more i see it as a good thing, not a deprivation…

When you deny your sexuality its normal “outlets”, it doesn’t just go away… (In fact in my case, my desires sometimes seem greater,:hypno: but i just ignore them…) it gets diverted… &… well, i can’t put it into words… but its a blessing…

 

[distracted]

I’m not judging you, I’m trying to understand what you mean. Just because I question you in trying to find out what you mean doesn’t mean I am judging you. See, from what you wrote above, it certainly appears that you are saying that Jesus gave us this standard of ‘giving everything to the poor in order to be perfect’ AND you also appear to be stating that since one has to be perfect to enter heaven, this is the way to go. This is what I understood and this is what I question.

and again, you are … uh… assessing me… on one post or maybe 2 …

the words of St Mt (19?) are very clear… This is the Douay Rheims version:

***Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me ***

and again, it says in St Mt 5:48 (?) to be perfedt as your father in Heaven is perfect…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

and again, you are … uh… assessing me… on one post or maybe 2 …

the words of St Mt (19?) are very clear… This is the Douay Rheims version:

***Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow met ***

No I am not assessing you on ‘one post or maybe two’. (BTW it seems to have escaped your notice that in your response to my ‘one or two’ posts you’ve certainly . . .uh. . .‘assessed’ me.

I love the Douay Rheims. I love the gospel of Matthew. But the Catholic Church does not teach that we must sell everything we have, and give to the poor. Certainly we should do as much as we can for the poor but again, you seem to be saying that only by doing specifically ‘giving all to the poor’ will we be perfect. And I say, and I will repeat, that one need not sell ‘all one has’ in order to be perfect. Rather one must offer all to Christ, who is in all of us and not solely in the poor. And that offering does not mean making oneself materially destitute in ‘selling all one has and giving to the poor.’

If you are able to do so, wonderful! God has blessed you.

If you cannot do so but you have offered all you have to God to use as HE SEES FIT, including not just material goods but your heart, soul, mind and strength. . .you are doing God’s will. You do not HAVE to give all your goods away if you have given all to God for HIM to use.

Zacceus didn’t. . .Joseph of Arimathea didn’t. Sure many saints who also happened to be living as religious and thus taken a vow of poverty, did. . .but many saints did not. St. Elizabeth of Hungary was an annointed queen. She gave as much as she could but obviously she couldn’t give away all her material goods. St. Louis of France also - annointed King, gave much but not ‘all’. The current blesseds Zelie and Louis Martin (parents of St. Therese) could not give all their goods --they had a family to raise! Yet they are blessed, they gained heaven.

 

[fkjuliano]

The U.S. government has never claimed to be the path to utter truth and eternal glory. An avowedly secular institution like the U.S. government should not be judged by the same yardstick as the Roman Catholic church.

I’m actually not arguing that priests don’t deserve some nice things. In my opinion, they do some hard work, and deserve a little something for themselves. I’m saying that it seems very weird that the Church can support that when it’s very black-and-white about other things - like, say, sexual morality.

In other words, to say that priests should be able to have some nice stuff for themselves instead of others because their job is hard is a weirdly relativist position. The Catholic Church is the same institution that would ascribe mortal sin to someone who masturbated in an attempt to relieve the stress of a stressful job. Why is the morality suddenly squishy?

Because it’s false morality–Judas morality, as a matter of fact. The idea of selling off the art treasures of the Vatican is moronic. The market for art works would crash and the funds obtained would hardly make a dent on global poverty. Also, Jesus never taught the Temple at Jerusalem should be stripped of its valuables. That is because everything at the Temple directly or indirectly was there to honor God and the same is true of the Vatican today.

 

[fkjuliano]

being celibate is a blessing…

I’ve been celibate/chaste for many years… it didnt always seem like much of a blessing… not hardly…it was a great struggle for many years there… but the longer i am chaste, the more i see it as a good thing, not a deprivation…

When you deny your sexuality its normal “outlets”, it doesn’t just go away… (In fact in my case, my desires sometimes seem greater,:hypno: but i just ignore them…) it gets diverted… &… well, i can’t put it into words… but its a blessing…

I’m glad you find to be a blessing, though some of what you wrote seems to belie that. In any case, it is only fair to give faithful priests credit for accepting celibacy and foregoing family life in order to better dedicate themselves to the service of God.

 

[nsper7]

i didnt see one thing there that pertained to the passage i quoted…

and besides, it doesn’t take rocket science to figure out what Jesus wants from us…

only obstinate people act like they don’t understand…

its probably mostly an act

The Church has interpreted that Jesus’ words to the rich young man regarding giving everything to the poor, etc. fall under the evangelical counsels and are not required for Salvation.

 

[nsper7]

me and Jesus…

and if you will read all my posts before judging me, i never said we had to literally give up every single possession we own…

Well, your interpretation of the words of Jesus are not authoritative. I would almost say that for the average person, the words of Christ in Scripture are not that important, but instead how the Church authoritatively interprets them.

 

[distracted]

No I am not assessing you on ‘one post or maybe two’. (BTW it seems to have escaped your notice that in your response to my ‘one or two’ posts you’ve certainly . . .uh. . .‘assessed’ me.

no, I’ve just assessed your assessement of ME… nothing else…

I love the Douay Rheims. I love the gospel of Matthew. But the Catholic Church does not teach that we must sell everything we have, and give to the poor.

and for the hundredth time NEITHER DO I Again, if you had read all my posts…before “assessing”…

Certainly we should do as much as we can for the poor but again, you seem to be saying that only by doing specifically ‘giving all to the poor’ will we be perfect. And I say, and I will repeat, that one need not sell ‘all one has’ in order to be perfect.

Gee, i know that feeling… that REPEAT feeling… and i will repeat for the 101st time… I never said that… geeze

Zacceus didn’t. . .Joseph of Arimathea didn’t. Sure many saints who also happened to be living as religious and thus taken a vow of poverty, did. . .but many saints did not. St. Elizabeth of Hungary was an annointed queen. She gave as much as she could but obviously she couldn’t give away all her material goods. St. Louis of France also - annointed King, gave much but not ‘all’. The current blesseds Zelie and Louis Martin (parents of St. Therese) could not give all their goods --they had a family to raise! Yet they are blessed, they gained heaven.

i dare say they only kept what they absolutely needed and whatever they kept that was beyond what they needed, they intended to use fo God’s work…

God in heaven knows the details on how much they gave and blah blah blah…

so whats the deal on focusing on this issue so much???

 

[distracted]

Well, your interpretation of the words of Jesus are not authoritative. I would almost say that for the average person, the words of Christ in Scripture are not that important, but instead how the Church authoritatively interprets them.

and as you can see i never put Bishop before my name… never called my self Pope Saint Distracted…

did I?

 

[nsper7]

i didnt see one thing there that pertained to the passage i quoted…

and besides, it doesn’t take rocket science to figure out what Jesus wants from us…

only obstinate people act like they don’t understand…

its probably mostly an act

The Church has interpreted that Jesus’ words to the rich young man regarding giving everything to the poor, etc. fall under the evangelical counsels and are not required for Salvation.

me and Jesus…

and if you will read all my posts before judging me, i never said we had to literally give up every single possession we own…

Well, your interpretation of the words of Jesus are not authoritative. I would almost say that for the average person, the words of Christ in Scripture are not that important, but instead how the Church authoritatively interprets them.

and again, you are … uh… assessing me… on one post or maybe 2 …

the words of St Mt (19?) are very clear… This is the Douay Rheims version:

Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me

and again, it says in St Mt 5:48 (?) to be perfedt as your father in Heaven is perfect…

According to the Church, Christian perfection (which is what the evangelical counsels are addressing) is not strictly necessary for Salvation, avoidance of mortal sin is what is necessary for Salvation.

((I combined my three posts for ease of reading))

 

[distracted]

everything JEsus said is necessary for salvation…

just because you go through Purgatory and eventually make it to Heaven doesn’ mean we should disregard certain passages…

Purg is excrutiatingly painful…

we should be attempting to save people from excrutiating pain whenever we can…

you are right… spending 1000 yrs in excrutiating pain in Purg b4 you get to Heaven is better than going to Hell…

 

[nsper7]

everything JEsus said is necessary for salvation…

Not necessarily since not everything Jesus said was in regards to Salvation or even issues of sin. Also remember that it is the Church that authoritatively interprets Scripture (including the words of Jesus).

Also, my understanding is that failure to follow the evangelical counsels is not a sin (venial or mortal). My understanding is that sin (venial or mortal) requires some sort of matter to be a sin and failing to do the highest good I don’t think would be a sin (a neutral or good act is not sinful, while a disordered/‘bad’ act would be sinful).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

no, I’ve just assessed your assessement of ME… nothing else…
Well then I’m sure you’ll understand that I feel the very same way about your assessment of me.

and for the hundredth time NEITHER DO I Again, if you had read all my posts…before “assessing”… I’ve read many, many, many of your posts, friend Distracted. I’ve been here on CAF rather a long time! Haven’t had the pleasure of dialogue with you before though.

Gee, i know that feeling… that REPEAT feeling… and i will repeat for the 101st time… I never said that… geeze OK, I hear you. I asked you to help me understand what you said, you said you didn’t say what I had understood you to say. I get it.

i dare say they only kept what they absolutely needed and whatever they kept that was beyond what they needed, they intended to use fo God’s work… That certainly seems a reasonable speculation. In fact, I think I said the very same thing!

God in heaven knows the details on how much they gave and blah blah blah… He surely does. We, of course, can only speculate.

so whats the deal on focusing on this issue so much???

Well, I’m not the only person who apparently had an understanding of your words that you tell me I didn’t ‘get’. . .I’m sorry you think this is excessive focusing on the issue.

 

[fkjuliano]

I just found an interesting tidbit of information that relates to this topic. The OP has repeatedly talked about the Church only caring about maintaining Church property, but not about “hungry people”. Quite honestly, though, no one needs to be concerned about the good people of Samoa being hungry. As it were, they actually have the highest obesity rates in the world, at 75%. It seems that the only hungry Samoans are the ones who are now too fat to walk to the pantry. Is that who Samoana90 is talking about?

 

[MariaTS]

I just found an interesting tidbit of information that relates to this topic. The OP has repeatedly talked about the Church only caring about maintaining Church property, but not about “hungry people”. Quite honestly, though, no one needs to be concerned about the good people of Samoa being hungry. As it were, they actually have the highest obesity rates in the world, at 75%. It seems that the only hungry Samoans are the ones who are now too fat to walk to the pantry. Is that who Samoana90 is talking about?

Your claiming the World Health Organization as a credible source? Really?

 

[Aboveallbereal]

Matthew 26: 11 For you will always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me.
**Mark 14: 7 ** For you will always have the poor with you, and you can do good for them whenever you want. But you will not always have me.
John 12: 8 For you always have the poor with you, but you don’t always have me.

Let’s pretend for a moment, we sell all the priceless treasures in the Vatican and give the money to the poor.

All the countless millions of people who can now enjoy these treasures will be denied that experience because they will end up in the hands of private collectors.

After the money has been spent on food, clothes and healthcare, then what?

As it stands now, the Catholic Church is and has been the largest charitable organization in the world. We are feeding, clothing and nursing the poor.

Interesting point. Like I’m sure many here I have had the pleasure of visiting the Musei Vaticani and St. peters and seeing Michelangelo’s Pieta, Raphael’s masterpieces etc. in possibly the finest museam on earth which millions enjoy.

Yes they could be sold but I would never see them.

 

[Teresa_Lee]

The REAL riches of the Church are found in only one way, through Jesus Himself. Please, join in the discussion and share your faith with others here.

Wishing you all a wonderful day!

Teresa

 

[distracted]

Well, I’m not the only person who apparently had an understanding of your words that you tell me I didn’t ‘get’. . .I’m sorry you think this is excessive focusing on the issue.

i should have said the particular ASPECT of the issue… which i have long forgotten… been to too many other posts, i reckon… have gotten rather distracted…

anyhow… i think there is a lot of misunderstanding here at CAF…

goes w/ the territory, i guess…

 

[distracted]

i think the Church should focus on feeding people SPIRITUALLY… not so much physically… unless the Church in question is in Haiti or some remote part of Africa … and even then, the spiritual seems to be neglected when we speak of ‘charity’ these days…

In this country there is really no starvation going on and if there is… where’s the excuse???