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stringbeanduck
Guest
Okay see it now. I mistook your post as bashing the Church.
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Bookcat
Guest
A…not true. besides…Art etc are for everyone.
B…the Catholic Church is the largest or almost the largest source of charity work on behalf of the poor etc on earth…
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jmcrae
Guest
The Pope doesn’t actually own any property of his own. Everything he has belongs to the Church - that is, to you and me. (That’s why it’s open to the public.) If we feel like putting a crown on his head, rings on his fingers, and a golden cape, surely he is ours to do with as we please.
When Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel, he intended it to be used by the Church. He would not have painted it if he had ever thought that the Church would sell it to some wealthy private collector and have it hidden away in a basement for the rest of eternity - he meant for it to be a tool of evangelism that everyone could look at and appreciate.
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stringbeanduck
Guest
I remembered starting this thread concerning church and wealth. Think it would be a good idea for you to read this too.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=320706&highlight=church+wealth
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jmcrae
Guest
That’s true - if one were to covet it, and if one were to steal one that happened to be necessary to someone else’s livelihood, at the particular moment that it was stolen.
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Broom
Guest
This is how I look at it.
The time of which that was written was without prior knowledge of how much civilization would advance.
If you said a billion dollars to the apostles back then, they’d probably not even be able to understand it.
However, considering that the average wealth of an average family has increased over time, I dare say that it does not matter how much money you have now adays, just as long as you’re not stingy with it.
Just look at Oprah Winfrey. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that she’s not getting into Heaven. Yeah, ********.
However, if you’re like Bernie Madoff and make some quick, easy and a large amount of cash off of stealing from a Holocaust survivor charity, then I think it’s safe to say that you’re not going to be seeing any pearly whites.
The time of which that was written was without prior knowledge of how much civilization would advance.
If you said a billion dollars to the apostles back then, they’d probably not even be able to understand it.
However, considering that the average wealth of an average family has increased over time, I dare say that it does not matter how much money you have now adays, just as long as you’re not stingy with it.
Just look at Oprah Winfrey. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that she’s not getting into Heaven. Yeah, ********.
However, if you’re like Bernie Madoff and make some quick, easy and a large amount of cash off of stealing from a Holocaust survivor charity, then I think it’s safe to say that you’re not going to be seeing any pearly whites.
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Rence
Guest
I’m sure you’re already gone by now, but I’ll go ahead and bite since you sound so bitter.
As others have mentioned, that quote refers to the fact that rich people will find it harder to be more Christian because they tend to hold fast to their money and possessions to the point of ignoring all the need around them. It doesn’t mean that you can’t own anything or be rich.
The Church is over 2000 years old, and has had a lot of time to acquire “riches” which don’t belong to the Pope, but to the Catholic Church, for all to enjoy and learn from, not just the Pope and those who keep him company over there at the Vatican. As a Catholic, I wouldn’t appreciate it very much if he would pawn off our legacy when I already know how much the Church arleady gives in donations and by running establishments that do charity work.
When my grandmother had Alzheimer’s and we needed help caring for her, everyone in the family had jobs that were established. It wouldn’t have been easy to change everyone’s schedules to watch her 24/7. The surrounding Catholic establishments didn’t have elderly day care, or facilites where we could keep her safe and happy while we weren’t home. But the Jewish community did. They offered monday through friday day care that kept my grandmother and her cohorts engaged all day, and safe. The fees for this service were $1500 a month But you know what? The Catholic Church paid for it. All of it except $30 a month. The Methodist community had an assited living type housing for those with Alzheimers. It was like the elderly day care, but round the clock supervision. When my mom and her husband when on vacation for two weeks, the Catholic Church donated the money for my grandmother to stay at this facility.
When I kicked out my deadbeat, alcoholic, abusive father when I was 18, I found myself in a situation where I couldn’t pay for my tuition anymore. At the time I was going to a state university and working on completing my first degree. Guess who paid for the rest of my education during this time? You guessed it! The CC paid for the rest of my education. I had to transfer to a Catholic College, but you know what? I LOVED it there! It wasn’t my choice to go to the state university anyway.
Now that I’m trying to finish my second degree, I am finding it quite difficult to pay for my tuition. I asked a few Catholic organizations for help in paying my tuition, but the few that I asked about said they didn’t have anymore funds left with their current obligations. So what, am I supposed to be all bitter, stamp my feet, whine and complain about how rich the Pope is? Please. They’ve helped me all my life when I need it most.
What do YOU do to help the povety situation? What do YOU do to help your own situation?
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jmcrae
Guest
That’s true, such a good point - we just finished a fundraising project in our parish to get a family off the streets and into a home. Everyone participated; this family is set for the next six months, and the parents are being helped with their job search and with budgeting and money skills, so that once the six months is up, they’ll be able to look after themselves. This is all by donation of the people in our parish.
Our CWL also just recently did a fundraiser for a girl who needed money for her college tuition this term, as well.
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BenjaminLumen
Guest
No that part is not has not ever been removed… it needs to be in there, and it has nothing
to do with the accrued wealth of either the Vatican, Vatican Bank, or Rome in General, but all Catholics are always subject to it, including clergy…
But if you have ever had any wealth or been around wealth then you will very quickly realize that wealth gives you a vehicle to control that no-one can deal with, you can literally
forget God every even existed and the world will not stop you from having your means and
your means to it both. There has been many disasters for not carring, and ENRON doesn’t even enter into it really, just barely, people on a daily basis do more Not carring what is going on around them, then. Money doesn’t have to give a damm about anything.
Money hires Lawyers and keeps them hung on the office wall like Battle-Axes to use for every thing where their need arrises… Money Hires Bully Boys to handle the dirty work when things get hot… You don’t have to give a damm about nothing… Money backing
Teamsters breaks scabs legs who cross the picket line, and Money in Industrialists hands
takes out Teamsters who threaten to strike…
Money… oooh… Money doesn’t give a damm , and since the problem is solved it never crosses the holders mind what he has just done. Problem Solved…
You can win every situation, No one can beat you… But that is not the issue, you just
If you have the will to win and the money to win you will win… Broken Legs, people with concrete shoes sunk to the bottom of the east river. Not on nod even Given to Jesus as the persons play their game of money and power…
I do not hate money, but when you get the power money gives, it eases so many issues and problems that you forget their are even human beings that you are dealing with…
That is why Jesus said what he said.
I am an Austrian style Capitalist, I love business, but I understand Money and its effects
very well… You don’t have to give a damn about nothing
Hence, Jesus making sure everyone is on their Knees in front of St. Peter, saying,
“It is easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle then a Rich man to enter the
Kingdom of Heaven.”
They will be stuck outside looking through a pinhole in heaven sperated from God in utter agony… because they do zero thinking about Christ, God, Heaven,or People…
Contrary-wise, the widower who gave all she had.
Business can get you into Hell about as fast as Adultery will… Because you just have such control over your world that you don’t think about anyone. You don’t have to…
Wake up , Eat Breakfest, go to office work, GOt a Tee-Time at 12:30 will be back at
2:00, go back to work , work until 7pm, Wife has cooked dinner which I have missed,
Get home at 8 o’clock, don’t see my kids…
Next Day…
Wake up , eat breakfest, Go to office work, Gym … be back at 2:00 work till 7pm, same thing…
Friday, made alot this week…
Monday, take over attempt, Buy up that strip mall, Raise those peoples rents, force them
out on the street. Move my business in there… Go to Gym… Play racket ball, go to shower.
give a women the eye as she just passes me, She wants me, Lust (Adutlery) ,
Wealth Man, wealth… “Camels and eye’s of needles, and No Heaven.”
You can go to hell so fast Rich, you don’t even notice it until your Ferrari is flying out
over the pitt , as the fire fills the windshield…
I have seen it, I know people who struggle with that **** and are loosing because of it.
ANyways…
I don’t agree with Oliver Stones Politics, but “Wall Street”, Gordon Gecko playing Faust to an unsuspecting Bud Fox… Cocaine, oral sex in the backs of Limo’s.“Oh yeah…”
Sir Larry Wildman, and Gecko battling over control of an airline, its all happened before.
Cornelius Vanderbuilt lost his behind in a powerplay between himself and JP Morgan I think, he died pennyless, homeless and angry… And Morgan Put him there, but that is fair, it is fair Vanderbuilt new the game, and played the game. But it still applies…
It was worse in Jesus day because all Wealth flowed along Bloodlines, From Rome to
Isreal to Europe as a whole…
The Fairchilds, the Hapsburgs, the … America was different because you were not limited
to being Royal so the circumstance is mitigated somewhat, but it still applies… It still applies completely.
So yes a Midly weathly man who loves his family and takes care of his family problems and acts the benefactor to his neighborhood or what have you is in Mass and is devout…
then… He is going to have an easier time then many of them.
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EmeraldWings
Guest
God does give riches to those who will use them well, there are many who do good with their wealth, and the Catholic church is the most charitable of all, because it’s not just the pope, but the catholic church as a whole, that means you, me, all the priests and nuns and monks and so on,
one of the popes, regrettably i forget which one, because it’s a perfect example for this topic, at one time did sale all he had(all he was able to anyways) after visiting a very poor and suffering place,
if God intends for the Vatican to sale their artwork and whatever other possessions that are worth something, He will inspire them to do it when the time is right, although i don’t ever see that happening, because what they have is not really theirs to sale, it is actually for the people, it’s there for us, and for things like that to be sold and then who knows where they would end up or if we could ever see it again? that would suck…
if the church needs money or needs to raise money for a certain cause, they do! and they are darn good at it,
and it’s not just the financial help that the church gives, they give their manual help, they help the world in so many ways, by prayer, teaching, guidance, giving us the Holy Eucharist every day at Holy Mass!(which is the most important)
we have missionaries, religious go out all over the world to help people in need,
and unless we can say that we accomplish those things, with only the love of God in mind as they do, then what right do we have to judge?
and even though the Vatican has these things which are worth so much, that doesn’t make them wealthy, things don’t make you rich unless you sale them, so really the Vatican is not as rich as you claim, and what money they do have already has a place to go, they don’t hoard their money,
but in regards to the original post, that passage is not referring to riches in general, it’s referring to love of worldly things, and the Vatican is certainly not attached to these valuables, which is what God is referring to, He’s not just saying to sale all you have, He’s saying to detach yourself…
and there was also alot more to it than that, read the entire passage to get a better idea of what Jesus is saying,
*"16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?
26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. 27 Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? 28 And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. 30 And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first."*
when Jesus said those things, He meant to detach yourself from worldly things, and follow Him,
God does not ask everyone to become poor of course, but simply to do as Job did, and say and mean the words “The Lord givest, and the Lord takest away”
but notice in reply to the disciples who said “Who then can be saved” Jesus said “With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.”
that means even though for many it would be very hard to enter heaven as long as they are attached to worldly things, it is not impossible, and it is certainly not our place to judge others on, when God says those things, we are to apply it to our own lives, unless we are instructing or admonishes someone(lovingly), and i’m quite sure that you are not admonishing or instructing the church on this matter, although if you had a chance to speak to the pope about it, i’m sure he would be able to explain it much better then any of us could.
and lets remember, the pope and all the clergy and religious did leave their lives, and those in orders who take a vow of poverty also abandon all they own,
whatever “riches” the Vatican has was there before the current clergy got there, and they are there because we want them to be, and the Vatican is well aware of that.
the church is not hanging on to these things because they are valuable, they are artifacts that were given to the church, and back when these things were given to the church, they were not valuable, they are only valuable now because now they are antiques.
it’s to broad and general of a term to say that the church is rich really…and quite frankly, i think God is much more displeased with people attacking and judging His church and His pope and priests and religious then He is with rich people…just something to think about.
one of the popes, regrettably i forget which one, because it’s a perfect example for this topic, at one time did sale all he had(all he was able to anyways) after visiting a very poor and suffering place,
if God intends for the Vatican to sale their artwork and whatever other possessions that are worth something, He will inspire them to do it when the time is right, although i don’t ever see that happening, because what they have is not really theirs to sale, it is actually for the people, it’s there for us, and for things like that to be sold and then who knows where they would end up or if we could ever see it again? that would suck…
if the church needs money or needs to raise money for a certain cause, they do! and they are darn good at it,
and it’s not just the financial help that the church gives, they give their manual help, they help the world in so many ways, by prayer, teaching, guidance, giving us the Holy Eucharist every day at Holy Mass!(which is the most important)
we have missionaries, religious go out all over the world to help people in need,
and unless we can say that we accomplish those things, with only the love of God in mind as they do, then what right do we have to judge?
and even though the Vatican has these things which are worth so much, that doesn’t make them wealthy, things don’t make you rich unless you sale them, so really the Vatican is not as rich as you claim, and what money they do have already has a place to go, they don’t hoard their money,
but in regards to the original post, that passage is not referring to riches in general, it’s referring to love of worldly things, and the Vatican is certainly not attached to these valuables, which is what God is referring to, He’s not just saying to sale all you have, He’s saying to detach yourself…
and there was also alot more to it than that, read the entire passage to get a better idea of what Jesus is saying,
*"16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?
21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?
26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. 27 Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? 28 And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. 30 And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first."*
when Jesus said those things, He meant to detach yourself from worldly things, and follow Him,
God does not ask everyone to become poor of course, but simply to do as Job did, and say and mean the words “The Lord givest, and the Lord takest away”
but notice in reply to the disciples who said “Who then can be saved” Jesus said “With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.”
that means even though for many it would be very hard to enter heaven as long as they are attached to worldly things, it is not impossible, and it is certainly not our place to judge others on, when God says those things, we are to apply it to our own lives, unless we are instructing or admonishes someone(lovingly), and i’m quite sure that you are not admonishing or instructing the church on this matter, although if you had a chance to speak to the pope about it, i’m sure he would be able to explain it much better then any of us could.
and lets remember, the pope and all the clergy and religious did leave their lives, and those in orders who take a vow of poverty also abandon all they own,
whatever “riches” the Vatican has was there before the current clergy got there, and they are there because we want them to be, and the Vatican is well aware of that.
the church is not hanging on to these things because they are valuable, they are artifacts that were given to the church, and back when these things were given to the church, they were not valuable, they are only valuable now because now they are antiques.
it’s to broad and general of a term to say that the church is rich really…and quite frankly, i think God is much more displeased with people attacking and judging His church and His pope and priests and religious then He is with rich people…just something to think about.
K
KC91
Guest
Actually the Pope does not have a salary.
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