Right or wrong: A gay-pride march of homosexuals who avowedly never engage in sexual acts?

[Laurence_of_PA]

Crazy question! I know.
But I think highly relevant, considering the mixed-messages I often get on these forums. I’m always hearing people say that being gay isn’t wrong so long as you’re chaste, but then others say that to admit and profess your gayness is a sin (even if you remain chaste).

In all seriousness, how am I supposed to make sense of the Church on homosexuality to others when – after nearly a year of trying – I can’t make sense of it myself!

This is the most difficult issue to talk with non-Christians about considering how gay people can be such wonderful citizens (no sarcasm intended at all) and still be “sinful” just because they have the same lustful passions as us straight dudes. Unless one dedicates the time to understand any of the theological/philosophical reasons, it really can’t make sense to anyone (sorry). Does the gay man go to hell because a priest never told him he was doing worng?

And on reproduction and procreaton:

Be honest: How many of you guys out there would really want to “populate the earth” if there wasn’t the little “below benefit” on the side?

I know this goes in fifty directions, but so does my frustration with the issue.:banghead:

 

[goofyjim]

Crazy question! I know.
But I think highly relevant, considering the mixed-messages I often get on these forums. I’m always hearing people say that being gay isn’t wrong so long as you’re chaste, but then others say that to admit and profess your gayness is a sin (even if you remain chaste).

In all seriousness, how am I supposed to make sense of the Church on homosexuality to others when – after nearly a year of trying – I can’t make sense of it myself!

This is the most difficult issue to talk with non-Christians about considering how gay people can be such wonderful citizens (no sarcasm intended at all) and still be “sinful” just because they have the same lustful passions as us straight dudes. Unless one dedicates the time to understand any of the theological/philosophical reasons, it really can’t make sense to anyone (sorry). Does the gay man go to hell because a priest never told him he was doing worng?

And on reproduction and procreaton:

Be honest: How many of you guys out there would really want to “populate the earth” if there wasn’t the little “below benefit” on the side?

I know this goes in fifty directions, but so does my frustration with the issue.:banghead:

There would never be a gay pride march of celibate homosexuals. Lust is also a sin if entertained. Sin is nothing to be proud of so the whole idea is an oxymoron. When one overcomes that sin then they can march with pride straight through the pearly gates.

 

[blessedtoo]

Crazy question! I know.
But I think highly relevant, considering the mixed-messages I often get on these forums. I’m always hearing people say that being gay isn’t wrong so long as you’re chaste, but then others say that to admit and profess your gayness is a sin (even if you remain chaste).

Homosexual orientation is disordered, meaning it’s existence is not ordered with nature to the good of mankind. It cannot provide the physical, spiritual, psychological and biological complimentarity that heterosexuality does. It can not procreate, hence it completely thwarts the inherent drive to perpetuate the human species. It requires the misuse of the human anatomy in ways that cause harm to the body. It does not fulfill the two basic insticts of human sexual interaction - unity and procreativity. HOWEVER, same sex attraction, in itself, is not a sin. The sin is in the behavior alone. Men and women who believe they have a homosexual orientation yet live a chaste existence are in complete confomity with Church teaching, whether they identify themselves as “gay”. “SSA”, “homosexual”, or whatever word du jour is being used. Courage, the Catholic group that ministers to SSA individuals, suggests that certain words that are more closely associated with an active homosexual lifestyle (gay, queer, etc) should be avoided but there is no official teaching on how a chaste homosexual should identify themselves.

In all seriousness, how am I supposed to make sense of the Church on homosexuality to others when – after nearly a year of trying – I can’t make sense of it myself!

You might try reading the Catechism. I also found this book helpful:
amazon.com/Truth-About-Homosexuality-Cry-Faithful/dp/0898705835/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-7097656-1600603?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183434664&sr=8-1

This is the most difficult issue to talk with non-Christians about considering how gay people can be such wonderful citizens (no sarcasm intended at all) and still be “sinful” just because they have the same lustful passions as us straight dudes. Unless one dedicates the time to understand any of the theological/philosophical reasons, it really can’t make sense to anyone (sorry). Does the gay man go to hell because a priest never told him he was doing worng?

Debating with non-Christians can be difficult. I don’t bother as I think we have our hands full just trying to help other Catholics understand. You could provide stats on the mortality rate, the disease factor, the anatomical component, etc. A great and helpful book on the issue of same sex marriage is:
amazon.com/Future-Marriage-David-Blankenhorn/dp/1594030812/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-7097656-1600603?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183434962&sr=1-1

For Christians, and Catholics in particular, it’s pretty simple. Our God, in His infinite wisdom, has allowed us to cooperate and participate with Him in bringing new souls to live here with us on earth until it is time to return home to Him. He provided us with a guide book and a manual on how to do this. We get married to someone of the opposite sex, we engage in baby making activity, always mindful of the privilidge we have in assisting God in the creation of more human souls. We stay married to our spouse for our whole lives to provide those new souls with the love, security and faith they need to go out into world and become saints. When we stray too far from the guide book and ignore what the manual says, we get into big trouble. And that goes for all sinners, not just one particular group.

Be honest: How many of you guys out there would really want to “populate the earth” if there wasn’t the little “below benefit” on the side?

I’m not a guy so I’ll pass on that one!

 

[Pat_the_Cat]

There are some important issues you have brought up in your question!

I think it’s important for ALL of us to be aware of a couple of main points. A person who has same sex attraction is not necessarily the same as someone who engages in homosexual acts out of weakness, or someone who engages in these acts out of choice, and definitely not the same as someone who proclaims to be GAY. let me explain the terms:-

**1) Same-sex attraction **
A person who suffers from same sex attraction can live a life of chastity in full communion with the Catholic Church. This is a person who understands their sinful nature, and (like all of us who have a sinful nature) should avoid sin, temptation and occasion of sin.

2) Someone who engages in homosexual acts out of weakness
This is a person who is trying to live a Christian lifestyle, has accepted the Church’s teachings as true, but is struggling to fulfil the level of chastity call by the Church for all people.

3) Someone who engages in homosexual acts out of choice.
This is a person who may or may not know the teachings of the Church, but choses to participate in homo-sexual acts regardless, either through ignorance or disobedience.

**4) Someone who proclaims to be GAY. **
The people who “claim” to be GAY, may or may not fall into one of the above categories. But being gay means that the person has accepted the socio-political side of the Gay agenda. This mis-guided belief system/ psudo-religion wants to advance the notion that Homosexual acts are not (as the Church proclaims), wrong. But in fact is a natural expression of intimacy between consenting adults. Therefore Church Teachings, the Bible, the Natural law of Pro-creation are all wrong.

Being gay, engaging in homosexual acts and having homosexual tendencies are not the same thing. These terms are not synonymous. It is part of the Gay agenda to confuse these lines. We as Catholics must love the sinner; but not the sin.

People should NOT be defined by the sins they commit. We are more than the sum of our sins, failures or achievements. If we go along with this type of thinking it is going to become nigh on impossible to help those with same-sex attraction to embrace the faith. It is this type of thinking that supports the gay agenda, because someone who professes to be gay, believes that they cannot be seperate from their sinfulness (in thought or action), which is a complete contradiction to the Christian message of Jesus’ saving grace.

I believe that no-one who is truly gay, can be truly Catholic!
On the other hand someone can have same-sex attraction and still be a saint!

I hope this helps remove some of the confusion.

 

[Pat_the_Cat]

I should also add that the term “Homosexual” refers to the act, NOT the person. As I said before, people shouldn’t be labelled by the sins they commit. Jesus said “do not call your brother a LIAR”. your brother might tell lies, but that is something he does, it’s not who he is! The same can be said of any other sin, homosexual or not. Separate the sin from the sinner. otherwise we’re all liars, cheats, perverts, etc. (or whatever sin it is that YOU commit).

I find it very strange that people WANT to labelled by their sins!
Can someone join a group for “LIARS” and fight for LIARS rights?with the slogan “I was born a liar, you can’t tell me it’s wrong” or “It’s just natural”,or better yet “don’t impose your morals on me”. :nope:

 

[ltbpoe43]

If they never engage in the act then it should be “We are proud to abstain” parade and all men and women who choose to abstain should be invited. That would be something to celebrate. It would probably get more media coverage too - being it is so rare.

 

[REESE_HOWELL]

take every thought into captivity when it comes from the devil do not indulge in pleasures of the flesh lift your spirt towards God

 

[briang72]

And on reproduction and procreaton:

Be honest: How many of you guys out there would really want to “populate the earth” if there wasn’t the little “below benefit” on the side?

The pleasure of sex doesn’t last a lifetime. The pleasure of parenthood most likely will. So my answer is yes, I would still want to “populate the earth”, or more appropriately, eagerly accept God’s gifts.

I would think the first time a child says “I love you Daddy” will be many times more memorable than the “below benefit”.

 

[brotherjoe]

I find it very strange that people WANT to labelled by their sins!
Can someone join a group for “LIARS” and fight for LIARS rights?with the slogan “I was born a liar, you can’t tell me it’s wrong” or “It’s just natural”,or better yet “don’t impose your morals on me”.

In my case, although I am married and as chaste as I can be, marching in a chaste gay march would not be identifying with the sin, but with the emotional configuration. So-called “gay” men’s hearts are often open to other men’s in a way that str8 men’s hearts appear closed and even cold. When I am communicationg with a gay guy, I see someone who understands what I feel inside, and someone who also has surely been rejected and oppressed as I have. Being “gay” means not having been infected with the d____d virus of so-called masculinity that builds walls, rather than bridges, between men. It may in fact mean being moe like, in some ways, Jesus. That’s what I consider definitive about being gay as opposed to being homosexual.

 

[Other_Eric]

For my part, I will give the fantastic notion of a “chaste homosexual” all the credence I would give to the equally likely occurrence of a devil praying the rosary or of a unicorn’s placement at the Kentucky Derby.

 

[Icarus210]

For my part, I will give the fantastic notion of a “chaste homosexual” all the credence I would give to the equally likely occurrence of a devil praying the rosary or of a unicorn’s placement at the Kentucky Derby.

When I became a catholic I was a divorcee married in an Anglican church which was a legal and licit marriage. My ex is still happily alive, and we get on well, but no chance of re-uniting. 25 years divorced

Hence when I chose to become a catholic I alsoo accepted I would never marry or have a relationship again…

We all have our crosses to bear.

Hence i find that remark also aimed at ppl like me, which I see in exactly the same position… It can be done. All things are possible with God

 

[Other_Eric]

When I became a catholic I was a divorcee married in an Anglican church which was a legal and licit marriage. My ex is still happily alive, and we get on well, but no chance of re-uniting. 25 years divorced

Hence when I chose to become a catholic I alsoo accepted I would never marry or have a relationship again…

We all have our crosses to bear.

Hence i find that remark also aimed at ppl like me, which I see in exactly the same position… It can be done. All things are possible with God

What is possible is for the person with same-sex attractions to heal their sexuality and rid themselves of their loathesome appetite. Anything else is a half-measure that is a fantasy, a fraud and a mockery to those who do live in chastity.

 

[goofyjim]

What is possible is for the person with same-sex attractions to heal their sexuality and rid themselves of their loathesome appetite. Anything else is a half-measure that is a fantasy, a fraud and a mockery to those who do live in chastity.

The troll returns. Same sex attraction is not sinful. Engaging in lustful thoughts or sexual acts outside of marriage is. Therefore it is quite possible to live with the acknowledged weakness of same sex attraction and still be chaste.

 

[Pat_the_Cat]

To answer the original question-

Right or wrong: A gay-pride march of homosexuals who avowedly never engage in sexual acts?

How can someone claim to be gay and proud, AND still know that Gay-ness is oposed to Christian morality AND still say that they are Catholic?

Gay-ness is a way of life, a philosophy, that is religiously adhered to.
Having homosexual desires is not! These are two COMPLETELY different things!

Someone with a homosexual appetite CAN pratice sexual self control (Chastity) and live a life in full communion with the church.

Someone who claims to be “Gay and Proud”, on the other hand, is condoning a philosophy/way of life, that is totally against Christian beliefs. i.e. “gay rights” (Homosexual acts being accepted as “natural”, same sex marriage with equal entitlement, same sex parnters adopting children, etc.)

With ALL disordered sexual desires, we need to practice real prudence in dealing with them. If somone has a problem with an attraction to Pornography, the last thing they need is to go to a “Pornographers Pride rally for people who don’t look at porn”. Even if they do feel “Accepted” by the other people at the rally. Or if somone suffers from Auto-erotic sexual desires (i.e. masturbation) the last thing they need is to attend a “Masturbators Pride rally for people who don’t masturbate”.

It doesn’t make any sense!

 

[Other_Eric]

The troll returns. Same sex attraction is not sinful. Engaging in lustful thoughts or sexual acts outside of marriage is. Therefore it is quite possible to live with the acknowledged weakness of same sex attraction and still be chaste.

I refer you to post #2 in this thread, which is what I take to be one of the most sensible things you’ve written thus far. You dismiss entirely the notion of a celibate individual who has same-sex attractions. There can be no “celibate gay pride march” because there can exist no individuals to populate it, lest we admit the liars. Further you persist in going back to the distraction of calling the condition of experiencing same-sex attractions a sin. Nowhere have I said that it is. Rather, it is a symptom of the deeper and far more serious sin of idolatry. Once the idolatry stops, so will the same-sex attraction. Until that time, the sexuality has not yet conformed itself to the will of God and we would have to lower the bar to admit those with same-sex attraction under the umbrella of chastity. For my part, I will not dilute the clear teaching of the Church and bend the rules for those who refuse to rid themselves of an objective disorder.

 

[Pat_the_Cat]

Originally posted by brotherjoe
In my case, although I am married and as chaste as I can be, marching in a chaste gay march would not be identifying with the sin, but with the emotional configuration. So-called “gay” men’s hearts are often open to other men’s in a way that str8 men’s hearts appear closed and even cold. When I am communicationg with a gay guy, I see someone who understands what I feel inside, and someone who also has surely been rejected and oppressed as I have. Being “gay” means not having been infected with the d____d virus of so-called masculinity that builds walls, rather than bridges, between men. It may in fact mean being moe like, in some ways, Jesus. That’s what I consider definitive about being gay as opposed to being homosexual.

Dear brotherjoe, I’m sorry for all the times that you have felt rejected because you have felt same-sex attraction, but the Church is very clear on how christians **should **treat people who have these attractions.

Catechism of the Catholic Church #2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

There is NOTHING wrong with being male and embracing masculinity. True msculinity is noble, loving, romantic, heroic; not like this false sense of Macho-ism. That’s exactly what it’s NOT!Replacing a false version of Masculinity (Macho-ism) with another false masculinity (Gay-ness) will never allow you to attain the fullness of your masculinity, as created by God. Even if you do feel more comfortable with one version, rather than the other.
Renouncing one’s masculinity (or femininity) will never bring fulfillment, we were created male and female for a reason. It’s not just your body that is male or female, it’s your very soul. If you’re born male, you’ll be male even when you get to Heaven.

Being male or female is our TRUE sexuality. NOT being straight, gay, bi, trans or any other derivitive. We should try to embrace our TRUE sexuality, it is who we are!

Drop the whole “Gay” thing and embrace who you really are…
A Man! A child of God! A struggling sinner who needs a saviour! Just like every other man…you got your struggles, and I got mine!

I hope this doesn’t sound like an attack, that’s NOT my intention, I genuinely want you to be fulfilled in your sexuality, as a brother who loves you!

I’ll be praying for you!

 

[goofyjim]

I refer you to post #2 in this thread, which is what I take to be one of the most sensible things you’ve written thus far. You dismiss entirely the notion of a celibate individual who has same-sex attractions. There can be no “celibate gay pride march” because there can exist no individuals to populate it, lest we admit the liars. Further you persist in going back to the distraction of calling the condition of experiencing same-sex attractions a sin. Nowhere have I said that it is. Rather, it is a symptom of the deeper and far more serious sin of idolatry. Once the idolatry stops, so will the same-sex attraction. Until that time, the sexuality has not yet conformed itself to the will of God and we would have to lower the bar to admit those with same-sex attraction under the umbrella of chastity. For my part, I will not dilute the clear teaching of the Church and bend the rules for those who refuse to rid themselves of an objective disorder.

And the clear teaching of the Church is that even those with this disorder can be chaste therefore no requirement to rid themselvs of it. You seem to insist that the attraction goes against chastity. It does that no more than opposite sex attraction. They are both simple conditions and do not offend against chastity. I’m ready to put you on my ignore list.

 

[Other_Eric]

And the clear teaching of the Church is that even those with this disorder can be chaste therefore no requirement to rid themselvs of it. You seem to insist that the attraction goes against chastity. It does that no more than opposite sex attraction. They are both simple conditions and do not offend against chastity. I’m ready to put you on my ignore list.

I am not willing to concede equivalence between same-sex attractions and attraction to the opposite sex. One is a disgusting perversion of the sexual appetite whose only end can be hedonistic, the other is a beautiful gift from God meant to assist us in even our platonic relationships. I have stated many times why even non-genital same-sex attraction cannot be considered chaste, at least not under the definition that the Church herself gives in the Catechism.

As far as putting me on your ignore list, you are free to do whatever you think best. I therefore hope that you will allow me the same courtesy, should you exercise this freedom of yours, and not take offense at me shaking the dust off my sandals from my encounter with one who simply prefers his own small ideas to the two-thousand year-old Tradition of the Church.

 

[brotherjoe]

Rather, it is a symptom of the deeper and far more serious sin of idolatry. Once the idolatry stops, so will the same-sex attraction. Until that time, the sexuality has not yet conformed itself to the will of God and we would have to lower the bar to admit those with same-sex attraction under the umbrella of chastity. For my part, I will not dilute the clear teaching of the Church and bend the rules for those who refuse to rid themselves of an objective disorder.

Well, we’d all like to think that we have this thing figured out. All I’ve heard for 20 years is a load of theories, none of which is supported by all the evidence taken as a whole. We do know that 1) homosexual acts, like every extramarital act, are sinful, 2) homosexual lust, like all consented-to lust outside of marriage is sinful, and 3) the homosexual condition is disordered, whatever that means. Anything else is theory. Oh and also, 4) we are obligated to love gay persons as much as anyone else we are commanded to love.

 

[goofyjim]

Well, we’d all like to think that we have this thing figured out. All I’ve heard for 20 years is a load of theories, none of which is supported by all the evidence taken as a whole. We do know that 1) homosexual acts, like every extramarital act, are sinful, 2) homosexual lust, like all consented-to lust outside of marriage is sinful, and 3) the homosexual condition is disordered, whatever that means. Anything else is theory. Oh and also, 4) we are obligated to love gay persons as much as anyone else we are commanded to love.

We all have disordered inclinations. Even St. Paul had his thorn in the flesh. The Church teaches that same sex attraction is disordered because it can never be fulfilled. But I don’t believe it is a symptom of idolatry. It is a trial God chooses to give some of us and if we live it well by not entertaining lustful thoughts or committing the acts can easily be called chastity and therefore God will welcome us with open arms into His Kingdom.